I'm in the wrong state :(

[SeanSolo]

So I'm pretty bummed. After doing hours and hours of research on the i, I'm thinking maybe it's not for me. And only because of the state I live in and how electricity is generated here.

I love the simplicity of the i. I thought it drove fine. I love the visibility and that it has enough cargo room for me. I like the funky look. The price would work, and I'd likely get all or most of the $7500 back. I have a very short commute (5-6 miles round trip) and I average about 10 miles per day when I look at the whole year. Plus, our city is not that big, so range is not an issue. My wife has a Civic that would work fine for us for longer trips. With such a short commute, I could probably get away with just the Level 1 charger, so no extra expense there.

Biking to work is not an option given the safety concerns on my route. I walk when I can, but that's very weather dependent.

So, my goal for my next car is to drive the greenest car out there within reason, price-wise. Right now it's down to the Prius C and Mitsu i. I found it very difficult to get an apples to apples comparison of how green these two were. Thanks to tonymil who posted this excellent link. I think he posted it on the Edmunds IL site.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/docume...ctric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

Anyway, a very nice analysis. I looked up my state, Kentucky. There's a nice chart in there that shows how much global warming emissions are produced by an i based on which region of the country you live in. So, for instance, the chart shows that an i in my region would produce as much emissions as a gasoline vehicle that got 46 MPG. Now, the Prius C rates at 53 City, which would initially make you think that the C is a better choice over the i. Ah, but I'm guessing my mileage in a C would be far lower than that. I'm thinking upper 30's maybe low 40's. I don't know this for a fact, and I'm anxious to see Consumer Reports City MPG when that comes out for the C. They rated my 1998 Civic at 21 MPG city, which is pretty spot on what I'm getting. I've also seen the low end for the C on Fuelly.com at about 39/40. So, now the i seems better if it's getting the equivalent of 46 MPG vs. 39/40 for the C. Ah, but there's more. When I dig deeper into how only my state (not my region) generates electricity, it turns out that 93% of our electricity is from burning coal.

http://www.getenergyactive.org/fuel/state.htm

The worst region listed in the first link is the Colorado area, and an i in that region would emit the equivalent of a 38 MPG gasoline engine. But if you look at the mix of fuels used to produce electricity there (found that in an appendix), it shows 71% by coal, 24% by natural gas. Another bad region is in the Midwest which gets 81% from coal. So Kentucky by itself appears to be worse (more coal - 93%) than the worst regions listed, so does that mean that an i here would produce emissions like a gas car that got less than 38 MPG? If so, the C seems to be better for me. Now, the one caveat is that maybe some of my electricity does come from Tennessee (within my region), so maybe less coal is used overall, but I can't seem to find out if this it true. I would guess since I use Kentucky Utilities (I read that they're at least 90% coal burning), that that's where my electric comes from.

One answer - move the heck out of this state. Not going to happen. I love my job, love the area (hiking), family's here, and someone has to be green around here in such a "red" state. Trying to fight the good fight.

Now if our state wakes up and starts producing electricity in a more green manner, then I'd have to give the i another look, but I don't see that happening soon.

I've loved reading this forum, and I'm always open to new information (so I'll keep reading here). This isn't a done deal. Thanks.

Sorry so long - this has consumed me lately.

 

[jennrod12]

Hi Sean,

Can you put solar panels on your house? Or buy "green" electricity as an option from your utility?

I haven't researched what regulations are in the pipeline, so to speak, regarding cleaning up coal plants, but it's certainly easier to clean up a coal plant than to individually clean up a few million car exhausts. So if you buy a gas-burner now and they clean up the coal plant emissions some, you are still stuck with the dirty gasoline exhaust.

Not only that, but buying a gas burner still supports buying imported oil, and still costs you the price of gas, so there are more things to consider than just the emissions. At least that's the way I think of it. I want to promote the fact that we don't need to use oil for transportation, we can use electricity. Once you move to that model, then you start working on how the electricity is generated. (I'm using solar, myself, but have also signed up for my utility's "Green Power" option in case I need to buy any power.)

Jenn

 

[tonymil]

Seansolo,

Take another look at that report. It says on page 9, note 2: "EV efficiency is assumed to be 0.34 kWh/mile". They used the Leaf's efficiency as the standard. But the MiEV has an EPA rating of 62 miles for its 16 kwh battery. Thats .26 kwh/mile, an improvement of .08 kwh or 24%. And it seems most people are able to get 75 to 80 miles and still have some charge left. So assuming 75 miles from a full charge then the MiEV gets .21 kwh/mile, an improvement of 38%.

So the question is, how does that change the chart showing the gas equivalent of an ev? If it's a straight one to one ratio, then the mpg's in the chart go up either 24% or 38%, depending on which number you think is more accurate. If this is correct, the 31-40 mpg equivalence in a "Good" region would go up to either 38-50 mpg or 43-55 mpg. So even in the "Good" region the MiEV is equivalent to the best hybrids which don't get more than 50 mpg. But again, I'm not sure that its a straight one to one adjustment. I sent an email to the group that wrote the report asking this question but no response yet, maybe never.

If I am right, the people in the "Best" region, like lucky me, would get an mpg equivalency of over 70 mpg (51 mpg x 1.38%) by switching to the MiEV. Let me know if this changes your mind. It would be nice if someone in this forum has some technical know-how and can confirm or correct this analysis.

Tony

 

[SeanSolo]

Jenn -

Good point about not using imported oil. I'll add that to the "pro" column.

From the little I've read about solar, it sounds like it would be more than we could afford to buy and install on our roof, and I'm not sure how long we'll be in this house. I'll keep investigating that as an option, though.

Thanks for the tip about the "green" electricity. I just looked up our utility company and they do have a Green Energy Program, which I will be enrolling in, regardless of whether or not I get an i. Who knew? They don't support any renewables in our state (we don't have any - even our hydro-power sources aren't clean enough - pathetic), but the money does go to support renewables on our "grid", so I'm thinking that's Tennessee. So, thanks for that. As far as our state cleaning up, I'm thinking that will be a tough fight. There are lots of "Friends of Coal" bumper stickers and specialty license plates around here.

Tony-

There is a chart on page 46/47 (50/51 on the .pdf page counter) that does account for the difference. Well, almost. They show the i at .30 kWh/mile and not .27, but better than the .34 of the LEAF. And yeah, that still puts me in the ballpark of the best hybrids, so it's kind of a toss-up for me. I'm thinking the added flexibility of having the extra range with the C might tip the balance.

Jealous that you're in a "best" region. On the plus side money-wise here in KY, because of the coal in our state, our electric bills are very cheap. I pay a bit over 6 cents per kWh. That makes the i financially viable for me and basically offsets the added initial cost of the i vs. the C.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[iMiEVNZ7]

Hi Seansolo,
Take heart !

For a short trip of 10 kms, even with heater or air con on full, You might only use about 2 bars motor wise for the trip, and about 10 mins of aircon or Heat even on max would be not more than 920 watts / hrs.

All up only 2, 920 watts say, 3 bars. At 240 volts that is only 2 hours charging, or at 110 Volts only 4 hours charging.

That is easily refilled on a small solar panel set up of assuming a sunny day, in 3 hours at a one Kw panel, costing only $ 2, 000 US. Plus an $ 3, 000 US inverter. Oh and a set of batteries at say 2 Kw to store the extra needed for 240 volt charge rate. If only 110 volts you could probably only need one battery to smooth things out a bit, say a simple car battery.

Once sorted it would be free power for ever, on sunny days. I would say on a mild day in winter you might even get 3 kw over the 8 hour day, but not sure.

As a bonus, the solar at home would be able to run a fridge during the time you aren't chargeing the imiev.

That way, for a small outlay, the imiev will do all your short trip charging on clean solar power. At a pinch I think you could even go smaller with the inverter and solar panels so might even be cheaper. Use pure sine wave inverters though.


Our plan is for the imiev to have a solar panel built onto the roof a thin film one and five batteries in the imiev boot as we can use the back seats most days for groceries, and a 3 Kw inverter for the 2.4 Kw charger the imiev comes with here.

For our short trips which seem to also be only 10 Km per day, we can leave the imiev parked out front on the street and not have to bring it into the drive to recharge.

Have fun ! and go Solar !

 

[SeanSolo]

Thanks for the solar info. I shall investigate further.

I also followed up with my utility company and we don't get any of our power from the wider grid region (including Tennessee) that is greener. 90%-97% here comes from coal.

 

[Don]

I have some thoughts to add

My area (south Mississippi) is no better than yours - Coal is king all along the Gulf Coast because it's so easy to get it to the powerplants using barges traveling the intracoastal waterway system - Most coal fired plants down here are on the water for that reason

If you're thinking long term, things ARE getting better, everyday. Older coal fired plants are closing because retrofitting them to meet the new EPA regulations is too just costly . . . . plus the cost of generating power using natural gas keeps coming down. I *think* the public is finally coming to realize that burning coal to make electricity is killing our environment and quickly warming the planet - Pressure will keep mounting to shift to more environmentally friendly fuels

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/26/coal-power-plants-closing-firstenergy_n_1234611.html

They mention Kentucky in that article, so I think you'll see some relief before we do - It's coming!

Another thought - If adding solar panels is too expensive, you might consider solar water heating. This is a technology which is pretty well perfected, is much cheaper to do and the payback for what you spend is lots shorter than using PV panels to generate electricity. If you were to meter the electricity used by your water heater for a year, you might find it would be almost enough to recharge your car, so switching to solar water heating might offset the energy used by the car, and make it almost completely green. We have a single 4 foot by 10 panel on the roof connected to a pair of 55 gallon high efficiency water heaters used for storage and we use no electricity (other than the few watts the circulation pump uses) to heat our water for 9 or 10 months of the year and very little power the other 2 months

One day in the not too distant future, gasoline is going to be $5 or $6 per gallon (or more) like it already is in most of the world, and more and more electricty will come from greener sources - If you're still driving your Prius then, when you look back you'll know you could have done better by going all electric back in 2012

Don

 

[MLucas]

Nicely said, Don.

Just driving electric also means you are being more efficient with your other forms of energy. Even if you aren't getting a green source of electricity, you are going to do so much better than handing your cash over to the oil companies every week. By driving electric, you are letting the motor companies know there is a demand out there for electric cars and the prices will come down and there will be more public infrastructure for electric cars. We are the pioneers in a new field of personal mobility - we are taking the hit to make the world a better place to live in. Everywhere we drive, we are crusading the cause of a better tomorrow for ourselves, our children and grandchildren.

I've had people tell me, you'll never get your money back for buying that car when they hear the price tag. I tell them, that is not the point, people buying much more expensive cars than this one and never get anything back at all and they lose more than half the value on them and no one says anything about that. Driving electric is more than getting your money back.

I hate that saying 'Save the Planet'. The planet will do just fine, it's been here for billions of years, it should be 'Save your azz'. Because the planet is a self-regulating body that has managed to extinguish other life forms that have been here before us. Unless we learn to live within these finite rules, we will all suffer. Global Warming is one of those regulating measures the ecosystem takes to put things back into balance.

 

[danpatgal]

... people buying much more expensive cars than this one and never get anything back at all and they lose more than half the value on them and no one says anything about that.

I hate that saying 'Save the Planet'. The planet will do just fine, it's been here for billions of years, it should be 'Save your azz'.

Words to live by. I would add, driving electric is SO pleasant. It is smooth, quiet, oderless ... unlike driving an ICE. It can be a challenge working out the range, charging, and justifying the up front costs. But once you get used to those new parameters, it's great and will only get better for everyone else if you do.

I live in Pennsylvania (another big coal state), but I personally have solar, which surprisingly PA had some very good incentives to help me over that hump. You should look into it for Kentucky, you might be surprised ...

 

[fjpod]

Get a regular Prius. It gets 50 mpg on a normal day.

 

[Don]

Even a 50 mpg Prius will cost 10 cents mile to drive (and that's not including regular ICE maintenance) when gas gets to $5 a gallon though, vs less than 2 cents for recharging from his 6 cent per Kwh 'dirty juice'

They would probably only need to close a couple of coal fired plants in Kentucky for the comparison to equal out to 50 mpg and I would bet that will happen before he quits using the car - Maybe as soon as the next year or two unless we elect someone who would toss out all the new laws which mandate cleaning up coal plants

Don

 

[SeanSolo]

I didn't buy the Prius C yet. I'm still driving my 1998 Civic, which is running fine, so I have the luxury of time to research, and heck, I may keep my Civic quite a bit longer. I thought I was going to keep my last Civic (1987) forever, until it was hit and totaled. I just figure with a 14 year-old car, I want to know what I'd get next if something happened to the Civic, therefore all the research.

I very much appreciate all of your input. I will continue to read this forum, and a Prius C forum.

By the way, Consumer Reports tested the Prius C in the city at 37 MPG (which caused quite an uproar on the Prius forum) and 43 MPG overall. Fuelly.com now has the lowest MPGs at 44 and the average at about 52 MPG. So, I'm guessing with my very short commute I'd get between 37 and 44 (probably closer to 44), which still beats the i emissions-wise here in KY according to that study. So green-wise, the C still wins in KY, but I still haven't ruled out the i, as there are other factors that many of you have mentioned (solar, no foreign oil, less maintenance).

Random thought - what's the plural of i? - is doesn't work. Just found this:

DO use the apostrophe to form the plural of lowercase letters:
Mind your p’s and q’s.

So I guess it's i's.

Anyway, our local dealer has 3 i's and they've been there for a few months. They have a white ES too, which is what I'd be interested in. I'm looking forward to seeing what 2013 brings as far as changes for the i and the C.

Thanks again all.

 

[joev]

Info about KW's to produce a gallon of gasoline.

http://solarchargeddriving.com/news/scd-editorials/831-surprise-gas-cars-use-more-electricity-than-evs.html

 

[SeanSolo]

http://weku.fm/post/kentuckys-high-ranking-power-plant-polution#.UCT_zktSknc.mailto

Just found this. Yep, Kentucky is number one. Boo.

Interesting to see how the different states fare. There's a link within the article.

So it looks like for now, as we're not ready to invest in solar, we'll wait until KY power gets cleaner (and try to push for that any way I can). In the meantime, I'll continue to drive my Civic as little as possible and maybe get a Prius C if something happens to the Civic, or maybe I'll still get an i anyway, just because I think it's cool.

I will continue to check in on this forum.

 

[Don]

Thanks for posting that link, Sean - Some interesting reading there. I had no idea some of the states listed in the 'toxic twenty' were generating so much pollution, nor that my state is not nearly as bad as I thought it was. When we southerners think of air pollution, we all picture California but they don't hold a candle to many other states, at least not when we're looking at power plant generated pollution

Don

 

[tonymil]

Just found this. Yep, Kentucky is number one. Boo.

I'm surprised they don't also rank by population. It's one thing for Texas to be in the top ten with its large population, it's quite another thing for West Virginia to be in the top ten. It's pollution produced per resident must be quite astronomical. Very sad.

 

[Don]

I don't think a rank by population would mean much - Where electricity is generated and where it's used can be two different things. Kentucky (and West Virginia too) may be generating several times as much as their state needs because of it's ready access to coal and most of that power may actually be consumed in the surrounding states

I know California imports more electric power than any other state so even though they are the most populous, their generating capacity per person is probably much lower than say Kentucy or West Virginia and a per-person rank would make the pollution numbers look better than they actually are

Don