Use of public chargers by PHEVs vs. BEVs

[sandange]

Just revived the courtesy card posting and added my new card -
Don D Sent you the files

Rich - please feel free to add your hanging tag should you find it to that post.
Next time your at Fairview Pointe Claire check out the Nissan dealer across the street .
They are very Ev friendly and allow all brands to charge free - 2 stations

- I go there about once a week.

 

[skyemoor]

As a prospective iMiEV buyer who has purchased a Prius Plug-in (and will be purchasing another vehicle for my wife in a year), my perspective is astride both camps. I found these summary statements by WyVern to be quite compelling;

* While I agree that the BEV "need" is greater there is the common courtesy of not interfering with other peoples belongings. In the case of public infrastructure there is the caveat that if the charge shows as complete, then yes, you should be able to begin your charge. But if not, the other vehicle should be left alone.

Perhaps all public chargers should have signage stating that other users have the right to unplug your car when the "Charge Complete" light is lit?

We should be happy that demand for public charging is rising, which means that more EVs of different forms are on the roads. My 2 points;

1. We should be organized and vocal about additional charging stations/ports. Speak at local government meetings during the citizen input sessions. Have petition drives for retail businesses to install stations at their facilities. Determine the best way to convince commercial office building owners to provide the same.

2. Just like with carsharing, there should be a reservation approach where one can reserve a charging station between a start and end time, with payment made whether the person showed up and used the station or not. Route planning algorithms would be able to suggest charging stations and time windows that one could simply choose between, reserving on the fly.

In short, we should stop squabbling amongst ourselves and organize to effect the change we envision.

 

[Vike]

As a prospective iMiEV buyer who has purchased a Prius Plug-in (and will be purchasing another vehicle for my wife in a year), my perspective is astride both camps.

It doesn't sound that way to me. Your perspective sounds pretty firmly in the "PHEVs should charge wherever they like and BEV drivers should wait their turn" camp. My own perspective is detailed in the plugincars.com discussion linked to at the start of this thread.

The plug reservation system you describe is cumbersome for users and providers alike; I think it's highly unlikely you'd find enough participants on either side of the service to make it work. But it's hardly necessary. In general, I don't think any EVs should charge with public infrastructure if they have sufficient SOC to complete their itinerary on electric power; they certainly don't need to. If we stick to that basic principle, making effective use of these networks is feasible, but not if PHEV drivers insist on taking umbrage at the charging sessions of their battery-enhanced ICEVs being pre-empted to save a BEV from being stranded. Without some flexibility on that, shorter-range BEVs are truly relegated to second-class status, suitable only for local errands and short commutes.

I've already written a lot more on this topic as noted above, and would certainly be willing to continue discussion of any new points here.

 

[fjpod]

Alas, but I really don't think all this plug reservation, ettiquette, niceguy approach is gonna work.

Charging at home is the best alternative. If you're lucky to get some Level 2 charging while at work...great. But DC quick charging at places like gas stations is the only alternative that you are going to be able to depend on when on longer trips.

 

[skyemoor]

It doesn't sound that way to me.

You have a very firm, one-sided position on this topic which pits one kind of plug-in driver against another, and dismiss any ideas about how to improve the situation for both. I propose we abandon divisiveness and work to make it better for all. One of our shared goals is to use as little oil as possible, so it is clear that more charging infrastructure is needed, and in some ways, the ability to ensure the availability of a charge station for BEVs.

As ChargePoint already has the reservation capability, this should be one of your first steps when planning your trip, if there are ChargePoint stations near you.

Encouraging more use of Chargesticker.com would also help to defuse the conflict that you are perpetuating.

As an owner of a vehicle that runs on electricity, I'm on your side. Internecine warfare will only distract us from improving the situation (and sour the rest of the driving public on considering BEVs). To borrow your reasoning, "If you claim to be interested in increasing electrification of the U.S. personal vehicle fleet", then working together to increase it should be one of our main common priorities.

 

[Don]

I still think the 'solution' is in the pricing for using public charge points. To quote myself (post #4 of this thread, a year ago) "This claimed 'ownership' and fight over the use of public charging stations seems very predictable to me and there will never be more stations than there are cars which need to use them. Until the costs of recharging becomes significantly higher than the cost of gassing up, I think you're going to see more and more of this"

If I had a PHEV and it cost me more to recharge to get home that it does to burn gas to get home, I wouldn't bother with public charging, which would leave those stations to the BEV's which obviously need them much more

Don

 

[skyemoor]

Somebody mentioned ChargeSticker on this forum before. I got one setup when I was exhibiting at the convention center. I left it in my window so that another driver could contact me if they needed one of the two charging stations. Never got a call on it, but I tested it and it works.

It's great if you don't want to leave your real phone number in public.

http://chargesticker.com

Thanks, PV1, this is a great idea, signing up now.

the costs of recharging becomes significantly higher than the cost of gassing up

One of the draws of EVs is the lower cost of fuel. If that is taken away, even just at public charging stations, that would be a disincentive to own an EV. If our common goal is to shift oil-burners to EVs, we need more incentives.

 

[Don]

One of the draws of EVs is the lower cost of fuel. If that is taken away, even just at public charging stations, that would be a disincentive to own an EV. If our common goal is to shift oil-burners to EVs, we need more incentives.

One of the biggest 'disincentives' to owning an EV right now is that you cannot count on public charge points that you NEED because many of them are in use by PHEV owners who do not actually NEED to charge to get home

IMO, PHEV's are not true EV's - They are ICE's which have a limited battery range which can be driven anywhere you like without counting on public charging to get you home. For you, finding all the charge points filled up with BEV's is no big deal . . . . you're not stranded somewhere waiting 3 or 4 hours to charge - You just drive on home

As a pure EV owner who actually NEEDS to recharge to get home (and would prefer not to have to wait 3 or 4 hours to do it) I would much prefer to pay more for electricity than the gasoline equivalent so that the charge points are not filled with PHEV drivers who do not actually NEED to recharge

If paying more is the solution to keeping the charge points accessible to those who really NEED them, then I'm all for $5 per gallon electricity. Another benefit - $5 per gallon electricity will keep ME from getting more charge than I actually NEED, which will open up the charge point for you, should you care to use it when I'm done

The 'lower cost of fuel' is recharging at home - To make charging anywhere else quick and most importantly, dependable, we're going to need some 'disincentive' so that people aren't hogging the charge points just to save money. If you have to wait hours to recharge enough to get home, buying EV's will never be considered practical for the masses - There will always be 1,000 or 5,000 or 10,000 EV's for every public charging station, so some selective way to keep them accessible is needed. That way is . . . . the cost to recharge

Don

 

[skyemoor]

Another aspect of a solution is the EV card, where you explicitly state that you NEED a full charge or are just topping off, to communicate your willingness to be unplugged when a greater need arises from another EV owner;

http://www.pluginamerica.org/evcard

Even just putting a visible note on the windshield or charge port could accomplish same result.

IMO, PHEV's are not true EV's

IMO, more divisiveness will not solve the problem, merely lead to more squabbling amongst plug-in drivers. Also IMO, I'm afraid the "$5/gal" equivalent is likely to gain little support from either side.

Pushing for more stations, spreading the word about ChargeSticker and EVcard, and adding the reservation capability should should drastically reduce this conflict.

 

[Don]

Also IMO, I'm afraid the "$5/gal" equivalent is likely to gain little support from either side.

I don't think we're too far from there now

Blink charges $1.50 to $2.00 per hour

Cost Per Charge: Blink fees are priced on an hourly basis. In its Blink Plus plan requiring a $30 annual fee (waived through 2013), charging is $1 per hour. Blink Basic, not requiring a fee, is charged at $1.50 per hour. Blink Guests pay $2 an hour. All of these rates are for Level 2 240-volt charging.

At $1.50 per hour, my 3Kw charger uses about 30 cents worth of juice, for which I'd be paying $1.50 - Even at that price, I wouldn't be plugging in any longer than I needed to get me home where charging is just 30 cents per hour

But, you have a point - So long as the $1.50 per hour is less than the cost of gasoline, we may still find the charge points filled up with PHEV's who are still doing it to save money and not because they NEED it, which still makes driving a BEV problematic

Don

 

[dniemeyer99]

I think what we are trying to understand is how do we ration the limited supply of charging station. I prefer to look at this as a long term thing. As what will we need say 10-20 years down the road when there will be a whole lot (say 20% of the vehicles) of BEV's and PHEV on the road. I also believe that most BEV's will have a 150-200 mile range by then.

This simple fact will require a whole lot of charging stations that need to be created. As I am not convinced that government will greatly add to this need, it comes down to private companies to find a good business model that will add more charging stations. What I am suggesting is that we should not say there will be a limited supply of charging station but rather we should have a lot more so that rationing is not needed.

Promote level 1 charging at work places
Promote Level 2 charging (30-40 amps) at places were people shop for hours at a time.
Promote Level 3 at major thru ways for long distance travellers.

Sure we will always have problems with people un-plugging cars but if there are many charging locations, these issues should not happen very often. Create a better infrastructure rather than trying to ration what we have seems to me a better approach.

Dave

 

[Don]

If most BEV's could do 200 miles, I doubt you'd see too many of them at L2 public charging stations. I predict the PHEV problem will only grow and those who really need to charge (BEV owners) will find other solutions - Such as longer range EV's as you predict

I don't think public charging will ever be anything like gasoline stations - One on every corner where you can quickly get in and out. At a gas station, you fill up and you're on your way by the time your significant other is out of the ladies room. L2 charging takes hours, especially if it's priced low enough to make people want to 'fill 'er up' because it's cheaper than gasoline

I expect rationing them in one form or another is going to be with us for a long time. The price at many of them is already to the point where many BEV owners will only want to get what they need, but so long as it's significantly cheaper than gasoline, PHEV owners will likely always want to get a 'full tank' and that takes time

Also, I think you're always going to see those folks who plug in and go elsewhere for a few hours and do not promptly return to unplug and move the car so others can use the facility - Unfortunately, not everyone is that courteous

For practical daily use, I think you need a BEV which can do what you need without having to rely on someone else's courtesy . . . . unless you're willing to patiently wait an hour or two in order to get what you need to make it home. When it comes to public charging, you're much better off if you drive a PHEV. If the charger is available when you pull up, great - If it's not, no big deal as you don't have to wait in line to make it home

Don

 

[JoeS]

One of my longer drives is to SFO airport which, depending on which way I go, can be a 60-almost 70-mile drive, most of it on a freeway/Interstate. I can make the round trip on one charge if I know ahead of time that I won't have time to plug in at the airport, in which case I simply slow down and hypermile. I've been PIPed and VOLTed and Energi'd all too often at the airport, the worst case being a Tesla in an EV charging spot not even plugged in!

I can report a very pleasant experience last night: the older ChargePoint EVSE's at the airport have two outlets: a J1772 cable/plug and a 120vac connector - each separately accessible with a ChargePoint card on the same post. Well, yesterday a PIP (Plug-In Prius) had parked one slot over and was plugged into the 120vac outlet with their own small adapter (like our Mitsu one), leaving the J1772 and a parking space available - I left a note under their windshield wiper thanking them for being so considerate. Gave me enough charge which allowed me to drive home from the airport with houseguests at the usual (around here) >65mph freeway speeds.

 

[skyemoor]

many BEV owners will only want to get what they need, but so long as it's significantly cheaper than gasoline, PHEV owners will likely always want to get a 'full tank' and that takes time

I believe you are unfairly impugning one category of EV owner, and assuming both intent and practice of both categories, at least in terms of general trends at the national level.

 

[dniemeyer99]

If EV's can get 150-200 miles and in the future is very possible, then it is very hard to develop a good business model for public charging at level 2. The only way level 2 would be an advantage would be used at work as well a private business such as restaurants or movie theaters that would offer charging for free. Helping the employee or incentive for you to shop at their place of business. That is why shopping mall should be on board big time.

There maybe another thought to this discuss as well. The charging equipment could charge x dollars per hour depending on the customers need. As in he would ask for a one hour charge. But after that one hour, say with a 15 minute grace period, if the charger is not unplugged, the customer could be charged a fine. That fine would be "y" dollars per minute. If this was the case and I had not returned to unplug my vehicle, I would be thankful for the next guy to unplug me rather than be pissed at him. This would also add addition revenue for the company that set the charging point up in the first place. First by fining the guy that left the charger plugged in as well as allowing more people to use the charger in the first place as it will be available more often. As I said earlier, we need infrastructure and a good/fair business model ( which translate to revenue ) for the companies to install the infrastructure.

How would you feel about being charged a fine if you left your car plugged in longer than you needed ?

Dave

 

[Don]

many BEV owners will only want to get what they need, but so long as it's significantly cheaper than gasoline, PHEV owners will likely always want to get a 'full tank' and that takes time

I believe you are unfairly impugning one category of EV owner, and assuming both intent and practice of both categories, at least in terms of general trends at the national level.

That's not what I was trying to do - It's more of a real world observation and an understanding of human nature

If I plug in and the juice costs me 5X what it does to recharge at home ($1.50 per hour vs 30 cents) what's my incentive to get more than I need? It's costing me too much to make it a regular habit

If on the other hand, someone plugs in and the juice is costing them 1/5th as much as buying gasoline, what's their incentive not to get as much as they can . . . . especially considering if they unplug early they may have to burn gas for the remainder of their trip?

As my original statement from last year observed, nothing much is going to change until the price of plugging in equals or exceeds the cost of gasoline. I understand that and while I'm not excited about $5 juice, if it meant that I could actually get some when and where I need it, it's a price I would be willing to pay and the price ensures the next guy in line that I won't be buying any more than I need, which is a good thing for everyone waiting in line

Don

 

[Don]

My ideal solution would be to make the whole process computerized and sell juice on a sliding scale, with fines for those who don't unplug when they should. There are never going to be enough public chargers so that no one must wait . . . . we need a way to make the most of every charger there is

Hook every charge point up with a phone line like gas pumps have so they can take credit cards. Connect them to the Internet so you can do the whole process from your Smartphone. Charge the least amount for the first Kwh and have each succeeding Kwh cost more than the last one. $1 first hour, $1.25 second, $1.50 third and so on. Most users would pay a small membership fee so the company can easily bill you monthly and you wouldn't need to use a credit card - Input your membership and PIN numbers on the keypad (or from your Smartphone) and charge. Non-members could also charge at a higher rate using just a credit card. The charge point would send your phone a text when there is 15 minutes left on your cycle - This gives you a warning to get out to the car to unplug and move it

Input your personal code or swipe your card, select how many hours you want, plug in and charge. If the car isn't unplugged *and moved* within 10 minutes of the end of the charge cycle, charge a late fee for the next recharge . . . . like the late fee on a library book - If you don't pay the late fee, you can't use the service next time. Make the late fee substantial . . . .$10 or so. Ban habitual offenders from ever using the service after 3 or 5 or some number of late charges. Make it a $100 fee to get re-instated

This would ensure the maximum number of users would be able to use the service, which is good for the business owner and it ensures a minimum wait time for those who need the service. The adjustable scale helps to ensure that nobody gets more than they actually need

I think we'll see something along these lines sooner rather than later - Everything eventually gets computerized and doing this would help the businessman make the most $$$ from his investment. You wouldn't have cars sitting there for hours after the charge cycle is complete, preventing others from using the service

Don

 

[skyemoor]

This discussion is discouraging me from buying an iMiEV for the upcoming new car purchase for our other car. If range anxiety coupled with a disdain for PHEV owners is a side effect from a short range , then I would want an EV with greater range to avoid the heartburn and griping. With the suggestion that charge prices equal gas costs, that would push me to would want another PHEV [edit], not an EV.

 

[PV1]

...that would push me to would want another BEV, not an EV.

These are one in the same, but I think you mean PHEV, not an EV.

Having personally never been denied access to a charging station by a PHEV, I don't know if I'm qualified to enter into this discussion, but it seems to me that it is very unsettling when an EV driver is in need of a charge and can't access a charging station because they are all taken by drivers wanting a charge, but not needing it. Unfortunately, this is a hot topic with different people having many different perspectives, and any trouble we run into slows the adoption of plug-ins. Until there is: a.) charging stations/outlets for every parking space, b.) higher-capacity batteries so that only quick-charging infrastructure will be needed, or c.) induction-enabled roadways and parking lots (Solar Roadways implementation?), eliminating the need for any vehicle to plug-in, we are going to continue having problems at the plug.

What can help alleviate these situations are solutions similar to ChargeSticker, but implemented into the charging station/EVSE so that you enter your cell phone number before you can even take the plug from the cradle, and the charging station calls/texts you both 10 minutes before charge completion and at charge completion. Another EV driver can also contact you through a speakerphone built-into the charging station or through a proxy number on that charging station that anonymously connects them to you, so that if you have enough charge, the other driver can unplug your car (with your permission) and use the charging station in an adjacent parking spot.

Any car, be it an EV, PHEV, CNG, Hydrogen, whatever, if it is parked in front of a charging station and is either fully charged or not using the station at all, it's just as bad as being ICEd, since the station is unavailable for use.

The biggest thing to help the situation is to only use public charging if you need it. For example, in the picture linked below, I didn't need level 2 since I was going to be at that location for a while, so I parked behind the charging station and used the 110 volt outlet, leaving the level 2 open for other EVs and PHEVs. Three other Volts used this station while I was sipping on level 1. I could have also easily parked there for the 2 hours I needed, then moved. I realize that many situations are not like this, but goes to show analyzing your needs vs. wants and acting appropriately can go a long way to ease the pain at the plug.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0cibutjt9n9bkb/20130714_121133.jpg

It's sad that these situations are occurring. Let's work together, we're all in this to get off of oil.

 

[Mart]

This discussion is discouraging me from buying an iMiEV for the upcoming new car purchase for our other car. If range anxiety coupled with a disdain for PHEV owners is a side effect from a short range , then I would want an EV with greater range to avoid the heartburn and griping. With the suggestion that charge prices equal gas costs, that would push me to would want another PHEV [edit], not an EV.

PHEVs have shorter ranges on their batteries than the i-MiEV. One of each would be nice, the EV (or BEV) for most of the routine driving, and the PHEV for road trips. The one with the shortest commute can use the PHEV in town and stay on electric drive most of the time as long as the longer commute is within the i-MiEV's range.