Use of public chargers by PHEVs vs. BEVs

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I want to see the market work, and a proliferation of EVSE. I want to see blood donation buses and bookmobiles with J1772 ports, and I'd certaily fit one on if I had an RV :roll: . Washington State Law now requires the spaces to only be used for EV charging, and the EV (or PHEV) parked therein to be connected to the EVSE or be fined $124. The bill specifies that the vehicle must be using the EVSE for battery charging, but not actively charging, just be 'connected'.
So, it's certainly an imperfect law, and the devil will be in the enforcement. :twisted:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2013-14/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/Senate/5849-S.SL.pdf
That $124 fine applies whether ICE, PHEV, and EV.
This is how public charging infrastructure will work- stations for rent on a first-come first-served basis. As long as you're paying the hourly rent, it's your station. I display a courtesty contact card in my window, but am under no illusion that it will work on a large scale.
 
Robb, that's when you just keep on it and slip in front of him. You gotta surprise them. This Mustang apparently had enough of 5 over the speed limit, and nearly took my front tire with him as he went around me.

What's with these trucks that have the smoke chip in them? All they get is my highbeams in their mirrors that stick way too far out when they (literally) smoke me. I don't like having diesel fuel all over my car.

To stay on topic, does Plugshare have a feature to reserve or somehow call dibs on a station?
 
PV1 said:
To stay on topic, does Plugshare have a feature to reserve or somehow call dibs on a station?

I don't think PlugShare does, but ChargePoint does. However, not sure if all ChargePoint locations CAN be reserved. PlugShare is just a public app that lists charging stations. ChargePoint is its own network of charging stations, and you can use their app to make reservations.
 
Vike, you have so eloquently been able to articulate my own thoughts exactly, both here as well as on the PlugInCars posts. Thank you! I did add my two-cents' worth to that article.

The enabling of reservations for plugging-in is decided by the owner of the Charging Station. ChargePoint merely executes the owners wishes.

As an aside, my drive to SFO (airport) is 35 miles which, if I had to, I could do the round trip on one charge (if I know ahead of time so I don't zoom up there). They do have charging stations in their short-term parking (the parking is $$$, the charging is free). A couple of nights ago I went there to pick up some friends and found the two charging stations by the United gateway tied up: one was a PHEV, the other was a Tesla S that wasn't even plugged in! Happily, there were some empty charging stations a short walk away and I had enough time to recharge and then silently roar home showing off my iMiEV to my friends who are now seriously considering an EV.
 
First off, thanks for the kind words. As you might guess, I've been pondering this issue since I first heard about charging spaces being "Volted" some months back, and the recent discussion at plugincars motivated me to start writing some of it out. Bringing the issue up on this forum has led to every bit as interesting and thought-provoking a discussion as I'd hoped for. I think this topic isn't leaving the news (at least in our EV-oriented patch) for a while, so I'll probably post again under this topic from time to time.

I've read many interesting ideas here, and been reminded of some things I've thought about public charging since before buying my i-MiEV. Following are a few thoughts I've had to "adjust" a bit after mulling all this over.


CHARGING AT HOME -- I remember when I was EV shopping and found it very irritating to read columnists and bloggers arguing that EVs would not be practical until there was public charging infrastructure available. Just as bad were postings by "reviewers" consisting largely of idiotic accounts of scrounging around for places to charge. All of this writing seemed predicated on a misunderstanding of real life with an EV in 2013 -- they're not supposed to be charged at some electric "gas station"; they're meant to be charged OVERNIGHT, AT HOME. Once you understand that, everything else falls into place. Six to eight hour charge times don't matter, because you're sleeping. Apartment dwellers need not apply; even if your employer and/or landlord choose to offer charging as an amenity, do you really want that to be a constraint on your future employment and/or housing choices for the life of this car? If you need to drive much more than 50 miles every day and can't afford a Tesla, you'd probably best wait a while. But if you have your own garage with sufficient power supply, a second ICE/hybrid car for longer trips, a short to moderate commute, and a mild climate, go for it. If you don't need to charge anywhere but your house, who cares where the closest Blink station is, or for that matter how many Volts are using it?

But then comes along that special circumstance where it would sure be handy to tack on a bit more range while away from home . . .


UNPLUGGING PHEVS -- Getting back to the plugincars.com discussion that started all this, in fairness to Joule Thief, I think we were both deliberately talking past each other, at least a bit. While I did say "I am not suggesting it's okay for BEV drivers to unplug PHEVs when the mood takes them or for their own petty convenience", gratuitous unplugging wasn't really the focus of my comments, and it WAS the focus of JT's. What really frosts him is that some BEV drivers view pulling the plug from a PHEV as no different from grabbing it right off the charging station, because they think PHEVs have no right to use a resource "intended" for BEVs. And yes, when this is done just to "top off" along a trip that can easily be completed entirely within the BEV's current SOC, I agree that there's no excuse for it, and I hope none of us would do that. While there's nothing wrong with opportunistically topping off at a public charger, a plugged-in PHEV should be respected as a fellow EV trying to avoid fossil fuel use; the only justification for unplugging it is because you're genuinely concerned about having enough charge to finish your trip.


SMART NETWORKS -- I was intrigued by a number of the suggestions regarding the intelligence that could be added to charging networks to take reservations, facilitate communications for plug-sharing, and even enforce penalties for misbehavior. Intrigued, but unconvinced (though I do like the anonymous plug-sharing alerts idea - I really don't want to put my mobile number in the window and walk away). As a group we're optimistic about technology, with the old-time EVers having an especially strong DIY ethic, but as a consequence I think we tend to underestimate the resistance to perceived complexity that marks the vast majority of American drivers (I've seen this tendency at work when I read EVers blithely describing the "ease" of borrowing an outlet behind the 7-11 near the office to grab a few hundred Wh while checking out the morning paper over coffee). I fear anything that complicates the charging process is going to become grist for the "why should I bother?" mill. Reservations don't seem workable to me, and complicated penalty mechanisms are likely to seem arbitrary, only adding to the "secret society" aura of EV geekdom.


LEVEL 3 CHARGING -- What I'm reluctantly coming to conclude (and I certainly didn't start here) is that Level 3 charging may be the most straightforward way out of this swamp. Of course, it helps that existing Volts don't have Level 3 capability, and very few future ones will if SAE Combo (CCS) is an expensive option (as seems likely); the same is likely to be true for most PHEVs (Mitsubishi's own Outlander PHEV being a notable exception). But that's far from the whole story -- regardless of how common CHAdeMO equipped cars may become, journeys that stretch our range needs past the battery's capacity don't usually exceed it by all that much, and restoring 20-50% of the vehicle's charge takes a CHAdeMO stop no longer than that needed to fill a Hummer's gas tank. That will go a long way toward making the supplemental charging process (atop the essential foundation laid with home charging) as manageable and scalable as refueling gasoline cars, implemented using a model consistent with the expectations of current drivers. Compared to that, getting into piddly arguments about access to 10 miles worth of charging while we shop at Target doesn't seem very productive.
 
Vike said:
CHARGING AT HOME --

Apartment dwellers need not apply; even if your employer and/or landlord choose to offer charging as an amenity, do you really want that to be a constraint on your future employment and/or housing choices for the life of this car?
This apartment owner has applied although after 7 months of charging exclusively at public charging stations at no cost. My former apartment was within a 15-minute walk of 7 free public charging stations which I used somewhat guiltily because I don't believe that public charging stations should be used in lieu of home charging. I knew that I would be moving, so I didn't want to incur the substantial expense of installing a charging circuit in my former apartment parking stall.

But now that I've moved, there's only 1 public charging station nearby, and it's probably a half-hour walk away. I can't count on this charging station being available, and I'm not planning on moving, so I'm jumping through the many hoops and significant expense required for me to gain permission to install a 208/120 v. charging circuit that I can use with my EVSE-upgraded Mitsubishi EVSE.

I realize that many apartment owners/renters won't consider the cost of a charging circuit/station installation worthwhile. Hawaii passed a law that prohibits apartment complex owners or condominium associations from denying a resident the right to install a charging station at his own expense as long as sufficient power is available and that the electricity used for EV charging is metered and paid for by the resident, if this is a requirement. I realize that many states don't have such a law, so apartment-dwelling EV owners in some states may face a significant battle. This is a shame because apartment-dwellers tend to live within an EV's range of their employers so would be EV candidates if they could charge in their parking stalls at a reasonable cost.
 
RobbW said:
From my own personal experience, I have grown to loathe Volts, mainly due to one recurring issue. In my city (Elgin, IL) there is only one public charging station. It is owned/operated by the city but is sponsored by a local business. There is no charge to use this public charging station. It is located on the ground floor of a public parking garage in the downtown area of Elgin, where it is surrounded by municipal buildings (Police Station, Town Hall, city recreation center, cultural center, etc.). Unfortunately, every time (except one) that I have ever attempted to use this charger, the same Chevy Volt is ALWAYS plugged in there. My assumption is that the owner must work in downtown Elgin very near the parking garage. Otherwise, it would be highly unlikely that the Volt would be plugged in there all the time. The owner never leaves a courtesy card with contact information in case another EV needs to charge. If there were other public charging stations in my city, this wouldn't bother me as much. I would just go use a different one. But it is the ONLY public charger in town. The next nearest publicly-available charging station is 13 miles away. Within a 15 mile radius of this sole Elgin station, there are only 5 other publicly-available stations, and they all require highway and/or expressway driving in order to get there within 15 miles!

Robb, I was tempted to drive from Rockford to Elgin a few weeks ago in my i (about 45 miles). I would have needed to recharge in order to make the drive back home. It is somewhat relieving to hear that I might have faced extreme disappointment from the station being in use. I had to attend an 8-hour class at the Holiday Inn on the other side of I-90. So I most likely would have packed the bike in the back for the final 3 miles to the hotel. And I also would have had to leave the car plugged in for the entire duration. It looks like I made the right choice by burning gas.

Have you ever tried plugging in at McGrath Nissan?
 
No, haven't plugged in at any dealership other than the Biggers Mitsu from where I purchased my i. From the few mentions I've read about dealership charging stations on this forum and others, it seems most dealerships prefer to keep the stations for their customers only and don't consider them public charging stations. And I can understand that. What I don't understand is why a lot of dealerships get listed on PlugShare as public charging stations.

As for the charging station in downtown Elgin, you very well may have been disappointed once you got up here. However, it would probably depend on which day you were planning to come up. I suspect that the Volt owner works in downtown Elgin and that is why they are always plugged in. The weekends may be a different story though. I have not yet tried charging there on a weekend. Always have other things keeping me busy on the weekends and always in the opposite direction from downtown Elgin.
 
alohart said:
I realize that many apartment owners/renters won't consider the cost of a charging circuit/station installation worthwhile. Hawaii passed a law that prohibits apartment complex owners or condominium associations from denying a resident the right to install a charging station at his own expense as long as sufficient power is available and that the electricity used for EV charging is metered and paid for by the resident, if this is a requirement. I realize that many states don't have such a law, so apartment-dwelling EV owners in some states may face a significant battle. This is a shame because apartment-dwellers tend to live within an EV's range of their employers so would be EV candidates if they could charge in their parking stalls at a reasonable cost.
Some interesting points here (I didn't know you rented in Hawaii - though who can buy?) I realized when I saw it quoted back that my "Apartment dwellers need not apply" comment was too glib by half, but it was intended as a bullet point in a general observation that the EV is not a universal personal transportation solution at this stage of the game. It sounds like Hawaii is aggressively EV friendly (at least in this regard), but as you note, I don't think you'll find that to be the case for apartment dwellers in most states. I recall reading an account of a renter denied permission to install a charger because of "liability" concerns - for a structure full of gasoline burning carbon monoxide generators!
 
Vike said:
(I didn't know you rented in Hawaii - though who can buy?)
Me, actually. I recently sold my apartment and bought another one where I'm attempting to install a charging circuit.

Vike said:
I recall reading an account of a renter denied permission to install a charger because of "liability" concerns - for a structure full of gasoline burning carbon monoxide generators!
My condo association required me to add it as an additional insured on my homeowner's policy because of such fears of the EVSE unknown. This turned out to be a non-issue that my insurer did at no extra cost to me (maybe insurers realize that there is little danger of damage due to an EVSE malfunction).
 
I dunno... as I've said before, if the EV market grows as it should, it won't be long before gas stations/convenience stores put the chargers in. They will attract customers they lost to gasoline sales, and boost their convenience store revenues.

I tend to think the market should work itself out... Inasmuch as I do support the growth of eVs. Where are you going to put these EV fast chargers?... In the middle of nowhere? No, they are going to be in gas stations, which are on almost every corner in America.
 
I must have missed something.

Where do all those gas station come from? When the Automobile was invented, there were no gas stations. Karin and me are living close to Bertha Benz's home and to the Bertha Benz memorial route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz

On that small step for a woman but a big step for mankind Bertha Benz had the bright idea to stop at a pharmacy to get some fuel. I did try some pharmacies and ask them for electricity. They did get the joke and they started thinking - only many pharmacies dont have parking lots and they are living in places where cars are not allowed.

So who else might be willing to spend us some electricity?

Jack Rickard from evtv.me says we need a chain of shops selling "hoh-hohs" and "ding-dongs" and giving us electricity for free. In Germany electricity is prohibitively expensive, some 33 cents per kilowatt. That is still cheaper than gas but not much. Many people do produce their own electricity from solar for less than 15 cents.

So a power socket that is in use 24 hours a day will output electricity for less than 800 Euros per month (3.3 kilowatts for an i-MiEV). Nothing to earn the money for the socket in the first place. By the way gas stations do not earn money from selling gas either.

In Germany plain gas stations have disappeared. Garages with gas stations have disappeared. Supermarkets with gas stations do survive.

Running after a train who has just left station will make people lough at you. Same for running after gas stations for electricity. Let them close shop. They will sooner or later. Selling gas is so expensive with counters and regulations and all. It is like selling tobacco or alcohol. Selling electricity is far more expensive than giving electricity for free and earning your money selling "hoh-hohs" and "ding-dongs".

So let us find somebody who is willing to give us a parking lot plus electricity in the hope of entertaining us and in the meantime sell us something we would not find anywhere else.

I dont know what government could sell us except bugs and spies and I dont want them in the first place. So running after government is like running after a train.

Cheers
Peter and Karin
 
RobbW said:
What I don't understand is why a lot of dealerships get listed on PlugShare as public charging stations.
I believe PlugShare just arbitrarily adds every single Nissan Dealership in the USA to their list of 'public' charging stations to show that you're never too far from an available plug

When I contacted the two dealers within driving distance from me to inquire about possibly getting a few watts should the need arise, 1.) Neither of them had ever heard of PlugShare, nor did they have any idea they were listed there, nor did they have any idea how the listing came about, and 2.) Neither of them had any policy on allowing anyone to recharge there - I never got an answer from the dealership's manager . . . . they would have to contact the owner to see what his policy was. Neither ever called me back and the one I called back a couple weeks later still didn't have an answer for me

My advice would be . . . . if you're going to depend on getting a few watts at a dealership so you can make it back home, call first and get permission and write down the name and number of whoever OK'ed it just in case he/she isn't around when you get there

Don
 
Last Saturday we were invited out to a restaurant for a birthday celebration that was located just beyond our 1/2 range all down hill from home.
The restaurant is located in a giant shopping mall location
Les Gallerie d'Anjou , Montreal, Quebec,
It does not have any EV charging facilities.


I located 2 hydro electrique charge station with in a short walk from the restaurant
When we got there there were 2 volts plugged in,
We needed at least 2 hours of charging to get home.

I left a note on both the Volts to please call me when they were finished and about 45 minutes later we did indeed get a call and I hurried over to plug in .
Thank you!
In the mean time I asked my friend & (owner of the restaurant) if it was possible to plug in on 110v while waiting and he was very helpful.

His first reaction was a surprise and asked
"We don't have any charging station here at the mall"

Next reaction was
" I'm going to have to bring this up the mall organizers"

Hopefully they will take some action.

A note to myself : Need to design and print some cards to request a call if this situation arises again.

I really like this mall and would frequent it more if they had any chargers available.
 
Somebody mentioned ChargeSticker on this forum before. I got one setup when I was exhibiting at the convention center. I left it in my window so that another driver could contact me if they needed one of the two charging stations. Never got a call on it, but I tested it and it works.

It's great if you don't want to leave your real phone number in public.

http://chargesticker.com
 
Hey Sandage ,

Good idea about a card asking for a callback. If you design a good one perhaps you can email me the template.

As a backup if you have internet on your phone you can check to see when the charger becomes available. But you do have to check it.

It would be so nice if the chargers could access a few parking spots and you could "plug in the next in line" and then call him and he could activate the charger remotely. That would be convient and it's not really a far fetched idea.

I guess you charged at Rona.

Btw you were not too far from the quick charge on the south shore. I don't know if you tried it yet but it's a real hoot...

Don.....
 
Haven't had a chance to get to try a fast charge yet,
got to get there one day.

We once had a posting with several courtesy cards

I'm working on a callback courtesy card design
& I 'll share a copy with any one interested.
But here in Quebec we need it bilingual.
 
DonDakin said:
Hey Sandage ,

Good idea about a card asking for a callback. If you design a good one perhaps you can email me the template.


Don.....

Somewhere in my pile of stuff, I have a design for a laminated hang tag for the J-1772 that was developed by the Electric Automobile Association. The tag would have one's cell phone number and something like "It's OK to unplug me after hh:mm" with a way to mark the time. I'll search around this weekend and see if I can post it.

I was in Montreal (Pointe Claire actually) about 10 days ago and got to try out my Circuit Electrique card at the Reno-Depot in Pointe Claire. Had a nice conversation with a gentleman in a white i-MiEV who was not familiar with this forum- I gave him the information, maybe he'll join in!

Cheers
Rich
 
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