Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fuel

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alohart said:
DonDakin said:
Got my heAter set up and tested.
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I'm surprised that the exhaust gases are so hot. Pumping so much heat out of the exhaust seems like a considerable waste of energy. Maybe the Chinese manufacturer didn't spend much effort on energy efficiency. I wonder if the exhaust of a Webasto heater is so hot.
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I am convinced Webasto has the same efficiency. The heater has the same specs, that is power output and fuel consumption.

Don D.:
You have created advanced testing apparatus. :) Good job! I tested my system as well but the components were loose.
Question: Is your thermometer calibrated for high temperature?
Comment: Added turbine would dramatically add complexity into the system and provide insignificant amount of electricity. We really need to understand the energy requirements for heating vs. propulsion.
Stan
 
Hi Stan,

The point and shoot thermometer was not very expensive so I don't know how accurate it is. But hopefully the relative temp difference is close.

Here is a little update.

The mini timer control head for the heater was defective. They sent me a new one for free that I tested today. Works fine.

I will be installing in the car before fall when I get a chance.

I'll post video and picture of the install.

Don.....
 
sventchik said:
Alternative to those expensive solutions : improve heat insulation of the actual system for a 20 Euro / 15 dollar !
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17150#p17150

You will save some money and some kwh. Is it enough for a so cold winter in Canada ?
Click to expand...
Your photos were taken from a discussion here a couple years ago

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=224&hilit=insulating

Yes, you can insulate the heating system for $15 or $20 but it only makes a 5% or 10% change in the efficiency of the heating system. Insulating the whole car would make a much larger change, but even that still leaves you with either a large energy usage (reduced range) or a cold, uncomfortable car. The notion that $15 or $20 'solves' the problem just isn't correct

If you live in a cold climate and expect anything near the heating performance you're used to driving ICE powered cars, adding a fuel heater of some type is probably your only solution . . . . especially if you need the summer range when making winter trips

Don
 
yeah, you're 100% right ! That's why my questionmark for cold winters !


Our car is sleeping in a temperate garage. And when december 2012 was -12°C, we had no big issue with driving our 100km/day and having partly the heating ON !
Of course, you drive in a colder atmosphere but it's acceptable for a 30min driving. I wouldn't drive like that during 6 hours ;)
 
Residing in Canada - I've been struggling with the commitment to install this unit to try and justify the cost for the comfort level.

For the practicality of investment I'm leaning towards that -

It would be more beneficial to support a high speed DC charging system network and just charge up more frequently when needing to for extra heating/cooling.

Another added benefit is that - it's with this same investment the benefit of extending our commuting range would be possible.

This would also eliminate PHEV 's blocking us from charging up.

EG. As per our west coast members - have available "unlimited DC" fast charging network for $20/month and use it only when needed (seasonally, extended trips).

Then the need for an additional heater or a range extender would be no longer be relevant.
The problem is we do not have a DC charging network available at this time.
 
Well My Imiev is officially a smart Hybrid.

I say smart hybrid because I believe that I'm using the right fuel for the right job. Burning small amounts of diesel creates tons of much wanted heat (in the winter), saves on battery cycles and range which is great and Of course motoring on electricity as we all know can't be beat.


After much planning, I finally finished the install of the diesel heater. Ironically I worked on this over the hottest weeked so far this summer (30 Deg C). On Sunday I finished the install in the garage which has A/C and it was a little more bearable. I'm still glad I did it in the summer rather then the winter.

This install takes time to do but it's pretty straight forward and it's actually fun when you start seeing results. Installing in this way allows the OEM electric heater and all the preheat functions to still work.

Like NDM I mounted the heater on the front of the plate that is located just behind the front bumber. You can see the plate if you open the front hood and look down in the notch in the bumper where the hood latch is. This location is just the right size to do the installation however it is a small area to get your hands into and tighten bolts but there is good access from below the car with a panel removed and thru the big airhole in the bumper.

The only panel you have to partly remove is the black one just below the Radiator. It comes off with 4 of those push in plastic snappy things. There is some kind of a sensor mounted thru this panel on the drivers side of the panel. I just left that one in after trying to remove it without success. I didn't want to break the mounting. Even with this attachment point still attached the panel moves around enough to give you the access you need. I found that lieing on the ground under the car with one hand thru the bumper and the other thru the area where the removed panel was gave reasonable access to the area to work. Nothing like lieing down on the job.....

If you raise the the car about 4 inches and secure it you can do all the install from the bottom.

The plate behind the bumber has lot's of holes already in it. The mounting bracket for the heater needs 4 bolts, 2 on top and 2 on the bottom in a square pattern. I used one of the existing holes at the top of the plate and drilled 2 other holes at the bottom. These bottom 2 holes are easily drilled from the front of the car thru the air opening in the bumper. The last mounting hole on the top was very difficult to make because of access. I wound up cutting out a more or less square hole with a dremil cutting wheel for that one it was a real pain in the butt to do and I broke about 6 of those small cutting wheels but I got the hole done.Perhaps a drill with a 90 Deg bend attachment would work also but I don't have one of those.

A few important tips if you decide to install this heater (the alibaba one):

The area is pretty tight to get hands and tools into but you can do it.
Wear rubber tight fitting (garden gloves) gloves to avoid grating your knuckles on the A/C radiator in the area as you ratchet the bolts.

You have to attach the fuel line which is on the top of the unit before installing it.
There is no access to the top of the heater once it's in place.

You cannot install the bracket and then put the unit on it. It won't fit, not enough wiggle room.
Also the long bolt that holds the heater to the bracket goes right thru the center of the heater.
No way to acces or insert this bolt in place. You need to fasten the unit to the mounting bracket
and then install the whole thing.
Do a test fit of the bracket only first and don't forget the rubber shock washers.

I mounted the muffler and exhaust just below the heater to avoid having anything protrude from the bottom of the car It's in the free stream of air while the car is moving so it should help with keeping the muffler/pipes cool. I did some quick temp measurments: the exhaust right at the exit of the heater is about 300 Deg F but the muffler is about 125 Deg F and the exit pipe seems to also be about 125 Deg F.

You can see the muffler and exhaust plumbing from the front of the car if you stand away from it. If anyone asks I'll just say it's a turbo charger.....

For the water hoses I ran them from the heater location thru an existing "hole" on the drivers side just behind the bumper then rearward and double back up over the brake controler under the brake reservoir and over to the rear of the white
"waterfall" overflow bottle.
Then it was easy to disconnect the rear input to the white bottle and put the heater in the loop. I didn't have to drain the system as I was opening it at it's highest level I

just added in water and antifreeze about 50/50 to keep it at the full level. That worked out well.

It's really clear to see that the diesel heater has a much more powerfull water pump then the one in the car. They seem to coexist nicely.

I had to cut away a small amout of the black panel for the exhaust pipe.

The rest was wiring and mounting the fuel bottle. All pretty straight forward.

I still have to mount the control head in the car but that's more finishing work. I also want to wrap up/trim the water hoses with insulation armaflex to help out with any

rubbing/routing problems.

It took me about 2 full days to do this including the head scratching and taking breaks to watch the world cup.


Further thoughts:

I think it will be nice to preheat this system with electricity in the garage and carry out the extra heat energy in the extra water in the loop and the extra heat in the core of the diesel furnace casing.

I do think this it will make the electric heater less effecient which is a down side.
I don't know by how much but since I now have almost limitless heat
(by EV standards) I think it's a moot point. I'll try to do some testing this winter and bring in some numbers.

Pictures here:

http://imgur.com/a/H12Gj

Video here:

http://youtu.be/DQdF_Kcsm8M

Don.....
 
Don,
Thank you very much for sharing your modification, good description, photos and video. You really executed your vision and this is a wonderful thing. Mounting the furnace with bracket must have been a test to your patience as it really looks very narrow and inaccessible there. I also noticed that it is better to hookup the fuel line before the heater, it is inaccessible after installing the heater body.
I hope the coolant liquid will be compatible with the stock as you mixed them together. Technically, it is preferred to direct the hot liquid to the heater core first for faster and more efficient heating but as you pointed out, the water pump is pretty fast so, it may not matter. Actually, it is the electric heater that goes there first.
The sensor in the front bumper is temperature sensor, good to keep it in place. If it is close to the furnace or exhaust, it can be biased and show higher temperatures, particularly when the vehicle does not move.
I recommend to mount the mini-controller next to the original temperature knob. It requires drilling into the dash but the accessibility of the buttons (and visibility of the display) is really good.
Stan
 
Hey Stan,

Actually I have to thank you. Your started this whole heater thing and inspired me to do it.

Thanks also for the info on the temp sensor. I thought about the coolant also but I figure it should be compatible. I only added in a little about 200-300 ml the rest was water.

I also just did the control timer. I put it in the same place as yours. Great location and simple to do easy access from behind the dash on the drivers side.

Sandage if you want to do this mod I can help you out. I think it will transform the car in the winter. More cabin heat, ability to heat the battery if needed.

BTW I hope the Blainville people get you the car back soon, it really sucks that they have no local experience with this car. I think we probably have more experience here on the Forum then the guys at the dealership. Anyways the up side is you might wind up with an almost brand new car if they change everything to find the problem.

I hope you get it back soon.

Don.....
 
DonD - Thanks for the offer, it certainly would make a difference. You just might regret having made it. , LOL
I'm not sure at this time where things are going with our car.
I was just working on my 2 years of ownership review posting. Not too pretty but it is what it was.
 
Thanks Jack

I'm in the final stages of the heater install & wanted to thank all here who have posted and shared their experience, Viedo & Pics - all have been a big help to me.
An extra thank you to Don Dakin for the many discussions we had on the phone for the install.

I've installed it as ndm, & DonD have, in the front of the car between the front bumper and the support plate in front of the radiator. - and
I have the scrapes and scratches on my (rather large) hands to prove it.

The few different approaches I did.
I did remove the front driver side inner plastic fender to feed the hoses from the heater up to the reservoir.
The muffler i installed horizontally with the thin edge to the front of the car as to maximize the air flow to the radiator. - still finalizing the exhaust pipe, might need to trim some plastic to avoid contact.

The final different thing was to install a support plate for a go Kart 2 quart ( 1.89 L) fuel tank that is secured with industrial strength Velcro strap in front of the battery

I'll be firing it up this week for its first test run.
 
Sandange,
Thanks for the nice pictures. Good job! I like your fuel tank in particular.
It looks like you have got the new 2014 model because of the nice blue color.
In regard of the faulty minitimer, I am hearing this for a second time. You have to contact the seller, they will ship you a new one for free.
Stan
 
Canada has had blue available from the start, I believe, but Sandange did just get a new 2014.

As cool as our summer has been here in Pittsburgh, I'm concerned over what this winter will bring.
 
PV1 said:
...I'm concerned over what this winter will bring.
Click to expand...
Just saw a program on PBS which showed that if there's a sudden dump of freshwater off Greenland (glacier(s) breaking off and releasing freshwater lakes), then that would disrupt the Gulf Stream and result in REALLY cold winters in the NorthEast and Northern Europe. Now, if we could just pipe some of that freshwater out here…

Sandange, nice installation! It'll be interested to hear your perspective once winter hits. Presumably the GHG emissions of that heater are still less than an ICE vehicle. :mrgreen:
 

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