Environmental Question

[Kuuuurija]

I think, that EV is about the same age as ICE car. But there was long period, when cheap oil for ICE cars displaced EV-s into small niches (as a mean of transport in large indoor buildings, where exhaust gases of ICE cars are not tolerated, amusement parks etc.). Even now EVs are not competing with ICE cars without government subsidies.
Electric motors have a long constant evolution. Only battery technology has improved, but even there mobile phones and cameras made most of the job. I can not see the reason, why an EV should be more costly than an ICE car, other than amount of energy and resources involved. Many EV fans claim, that actually it is cheaper to build an EV than an ICE car. But if companies already spent their money (collected from sales of ICE cars) for development (and still survived), then they can now just collect the cash by mass production and offering with reasonable price. By unreasonably high prices they just avoid to earn back their investments. GM-s EV1 failed because they tried to mass sale those cars underpricing the car, but this is not sustainable for longer period if production costs are much higher than selling revenues.

 

[HParkEV]

...
Of course you act very wisely to seek information. Search by as long as possible, you'll miss the first wave of very expensive electric vehicles and over many years you can buy a much better, more advanced and of course cheaper car.

Notice though that Kuuuurija only seeks information that fits his agenda, as can be clearly observed by looking at his post history.
As an example, he is very quick to post news articles about EV fires, while conveniently ignores 172,500 ICE vehicle fires in the US alone, over the course of just one year. http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-statistics/the-us-fire-problem

This is just one example, there are many others including his efficiency 'estimates' for energy production and distribution, which are completely out to lunch. In the case of my region, Toronto Hydro actually charges their customers for the lost power in the electrical grid as a 'loss factor adjustment', and it amounts to 3.76%. Of course we are very close here to major electricity generating stations and the overall losses in the whole grid are greater, but 99% of EV's are in and around the three big cities in Canada, so we should look at transmission losses here, not in the far reaches of the country.

Therefore, he can safely be ignored, and he probably is in the wrong forum. In this forum people are mostly interested in facts, not media-generated noise or agenda-driven biased opinions.

 

[Kuuuurija]

As I stated before these variables are different in every country. Here, in Estonia, losses from the power grid are always been higher than 10% of brutto production. Although they are now not as high as they were just 10 years ago (near to 15%) they are still above 12%. Adding self consumption of power plants (also above 10% of brutto) and taking into account relatively low efficiency of oil shale thermal blocks (ca 30% in case of older blocks and up to 40% for the new block) and the fact that at least 15% of the oil shale is wasted on mining process (mixed with limestone in open mines or much higher percentage left as supporting columns in case of undeground mining) the efficiency of EV-s here can not be high.

I can not understand why I have to discuss ICE car fires here? This is after all EV forum!

 

[carnut1100]

Because EV fires are extremely rare but always seem to get reported in the media.
In the US 800 cars burn PER DAY.
I have more than one friend who have had cars March on fire while they were driving, I myself was lucky as I used to own a car that was known for doing this, maybe 15-20% of them burned until the owners began modifying the fuel system to prevent it.
I have a friend who quit his job as a paramedic after he aattended a crash where two cars caught fire and incinerated four people, one of them his goddaughter.
These were not EVs....

As for EV1....GM did NOT mass market them below cost!
They were lease only, there was a waiting list, when the lease ended many people wanted to buy the cars but GM took them all back and crushed them. The EV1 was only ever available in California anyway, and GM buried it quick and deep....

As for pricing....in the USA where there is a greater market and less tolerance by consumers of being screwed over, a Leaf is well under $30k.
Here in Aus they were $57k (at a time when our dollar was worth $US1.10!) and are even now selling the 2012 model at $40k to clear them before the New model comes out.

IMievs were $53k here....

That is because we will put up with it while USA won't.
Also because only 250-ish iMievs were bbrought here so cost of certification and marketing etc are higher per unit


It sounds like your country has rubbish electricity network and for that I am sad.
Where I live the power is all hydro and wind, zero pollution.
Other parts of Aus have a mix of power supply including coal, gas, wind, hydro and more.
The steady baseload generators are running all night anyway which is when I charge. I am helping to even out the power supply over the day.

Also my car costs 5 cents per kilometre to run while my petrol car is over 25 cents per kilometre so the EV would have to be a lot worse for the environment to make me quit driving it, but I know I am running on ttotally renewable power at efficiency my ICE car can never hope to achieve.

 

[PV1]

Come on, guys! Why waste your energy in such topics? A man who is confident in it's own right, is almost impossible to convince. Kuuuurija is probably one of the few Estonians who deny the benefits of great EV infrastructure making Estonia the paradise for I-miev and Leaf owners.

You'll find such stubborn individuals everywhere. Thay simply can not or don't want to understand and accept all benefits of electric powered vehicles. It's best to ignore them and let them believe they're right.

Come on, I've silenced a few of these "stubborn individuals" because they couldn't refute the facts. :mrgreen:

As far as needing the grid with solar, not true with batteries. I could take 4 truck batteries (even second-hand ones so there is no extra energy involved in production), run straight DC from my panels to the batteries through an inverter and charge the car. I'd only need the batteries for voltage regulation. If I could tap straight into the car's high voltage DC, hook the panels in series and let it go. 98% charging efficiency, no grid needed. Even here, https://db.tt/DiRDRKH9 , in a battery-less solar array, the only input from the grid is a sine wave for the inverters to follow. I was still pushing power out to the grid with the car plugged in and running the house. I had zero emissions generated from my usage, and my neighbor received my excess, making that portion of energy more efficient since it was only traveling 1/8 mile and only touched two transformers.

Can an ICE reclaim 20% of the energy used to propel the vehicle? My i-MiEV does everyday. I have numbers to back it up.

 

[NeilBlanchard]

The lifetime energy output of solar panels far exceeds the energy used to make them. And if you make the next generation of solar panels with energy produced by the first generation, then it gets cleaner and cleaner over time. Same thing goes for all renewable energy sources - they do not burn any fuel, and they will get cleaner and cleaner over time.

Biofuels are a mixed bag. If they use chemical fertilizers (made from natural gas), and if they use a lot of water, and if they displace food crops, and if they have erosion - then there is a problem. If they avoid those issues, then great. We can get methane from sewage and farm waste, and we get both the methane and a high quality fixed nitrogen fertilizer. Plants like jatropha that grow on marginal land with very little cultivation, and it can produce a lot of biodiesel.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Because EV fires are extremely rare but always seem to get reported in the media.
In the US 800 cars burn PER DAY.

There was 2 EV fires in Estonia this year. As there is more than 1000 times more ICE cars registered, so to get the same rate of fires, at least 3 ICE cars should burn each day. Actual rate is much less (more than 10x less). As lithium batteries are considered to be a fire hazard, they are generally even not allowed to be sent internationally by regular post. That is why I keep eye on EV fires.

As for EV1....GM did NOT mass market them below cost!
They were lease only, there was a waiting list, when the lease ended many people wanted to buy the cars but GM took them all back and crushed them. The EV1 was only ever available in California anyway, and GM buried it quick and deep.....

They tried to! I consider leasing also as one form of marketing.
Because the lease did cover only fraction of the production cost. One should pay 70 years of lease payments to cover the production cost. But those cars needed to be serviced too and first portion already got battery upgrade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EV1

Bob Lutz, GM Vice Chairman responsible for the Chevrolet Volt, in November 2011 stated the EV1 cost $250,000 each and leased for just $300 per month.

It sounds like your country has rubbish electricity network and for that I am sad.

Yes, oil shale energy is on of the most polluting because energy density of this fuel is low. And our power plants are located in the NE corner of the country, far away from most of population.

Also my car costs 5 cents per kilometre to run while my petrol car is over 25 cents per kilometre so the EV would have to be a lot worse for the environment to make me quit driving it, but I know I am running on ttotally renewable power at efficiency my ICE car can never hope to achieve.

5 AUS cents per km? Our government promoted EV-s like they take only 1 Euro cent per km. Unfortunately this is not true. Therefore I doubt in many claims about EV-s. And ask questions to clarify the issue.

 

[Kuuuurija]

98% charging efficiency, no grid needed.

I seriously doubt it! Even if you already have right voltage for charging then charging process has more losses than 2%. What you think, why batteries get warm when charging? The chemical charging process has some losses, that will heat the battery. But if you need to adjust voltage, then it would be even less efficient. The charger will get heated too...

 

[Kuuuurija]

The lifetime energy output of solar panels far exceeds the energy used to make them. And if you make the next generation of solar panels with energy produced by the first generation, then it gets cleaner and cleaner over time. Same thing goes for all renewable energy sources - they do not burn any fuel, and they will get cleaner and cleaner over time.

I think, that this is mostly depending on where you use those panels. Here in Estonia we have few sunny days. And there is only 6...9 hours per day in wintertime, when it is not completely dark outside.
If solar panels were efficient here then the government should not support investments by 75%. For the money that they collect from the government they could buy the amount of power they produce for several lifetime of the panels.

 

[carnut1100]

Yes, 5 Aus cents per km is the running cost of my iMiev. That is wall to wheel, including all charging losses etc.
I average around 180 Wh/km (higher than moat iMiev drivers as I live in a very hilly area...the last kilometre to my house rises over 150 metres) and the retail cost of electricity is around 28c per kWh.
I have no off peak rate, it is all one Price.
I am installing 5kW of photovoltaics which will mitigate my costs a lot.

EV1....they were never seriously market.
They were made available because the CARB emission laws said they had to be.
There was a substantial waiting list for them which GM never filled.
The moment lobbying got the laws overturned all of the EV supplies were stopped and as leases ran out the cars were taken back and crushed despite the fact that most of the owners wanted to buy them outright.

 

[PV1]

98% charging efficiency, no grid needed.

I seriously doubt it! Even if you already have right voltage for charging then charging process has more losses than 2%. What you think, why batteries get warm when charging? The chemical charging process has some losses, that will heat the battery. But if you need to adjust voltage, then it would be even less efficient. The charger will get heated too...

Lithium ion batteries do not heat up as much as other batteries. You also missed part of the post you quoted. "If I could tap straight into the car's high voltage, go straight DC from the panels to the batteries". There would be no charger involved. Just watch the SoC and stop around 90%.

From batteryuniversity.com:
"Charge efficiency is 97 to 99 percent and the cell remains cool during charge."

 

[Zelenec]

5 AUS cents per km? Our government promoted EV-s like they take only 1 Euro cent per km. Unfortunately this is not true.

Well, actualy it is true. Look at my yearly consumption here. If I add yearly assurance (96€), registration (3€) and regular service (45€), running cost rise to 1,6 euro cent/km in first 13 months of driving C-Zero.

this is mostly depending on where you use those panels. Here in Estonia we have few sunny days. And there is only 6...9 hours per day in wintertime, when it is not completely dark outside.

You have other options in Estonia. It's true solar panels are not efficient in winter time, but what about spring and summer months, when you have longer days as we have?

The overall renewable energy potential in Estonia is given in the following table:

Renewable Energy TWh
Windpower 8,8
Solar heat 1,9
Solar PV 0,7
Bio-fuel, liquid 0,6
Solid biomass 21,9
Biogas 1,9
Energy Forest 11,3
Hydro power 0,2
Total 47,3

Compared with the primary energy supply of 56 TWh in Estonia in 2009, the overall renewable
energy potential is almost up to the current total primary energy demand.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Yes, 5 Aus cents per km is the running cost of my iMiev. That is wall to wheel, including all charging losses etc.
I average around 180 Wh/km (higher than moat iMiev drivers as I live in a very hilly area...the last kilometre to my house rises over 150 metres) and the retail cost of electricity is around 28c per kWh.

Thank you very much for your input! Usually EV owners publish only their econodrive records i.e. the lowest cost possible they achieved in their most economic drive mode. I am interested in how the costs are when driving normally. And 5 cents per km sounds very much like was my guess (at least 4 Euro cents per km, that does not include road tax) at the time, when the government promoted his 1 cent per km disinformation.

EV1....they were never seriously market.
They were made available because the CARB emission laws said they had to be.
There was a substantial waiting list for them which GM never filled.
The moment lobbying got the laws overturned all of the EV supplies were stopped and as leases ran out the cars were taken back and crushed despite the fact that most of the owners wanted to buy them outright.

Interest was still very low, if to consider that the lease price was ridiculously low compared to the production cost. If the waiting list was so short as it was, even at the tiny lease price, that covered only fraction of production cost, then it was clear to GM, that the project was failed. Every EV1 on street produced huge loss for the company. It is obvious, why they cancelled the project.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Lithium ion batteries do not heat up as much as other batteries. You also missed part of the post you quoted. "If I could tap straight into the car's high voltage, go straight DC from the panels to the batteries". There would be no charger involved. Just watch the SoC and stop around 90%.

From batteryuniversity.com:
"Charge efficiency is 97 to 99 percent and the cell remains cool during charge."

Really? Then I can not understand why my camera and cell phone batterys get warm when charging. And why there is built in thermal cut circuit in every Li ion unit.
My cellphone gets warm (from the place where battery is located) even if I have long phone conversations, that means, that the opposite process, chemical to electric energy, is also with considerable losses.

Solar panels have very heavily varying output power. I am not an expert of solar panels, but I still suspect that both voltage and current depend on solar intensity (angle of exposure to the Sun, presence of clouds etc). If solar panels provide constant voltage and only current changes, then it is possible to avoid trafos and if the car can terminate the charging when battery gets full, then there is no need for charger.

 

[Kuuuurija]

Well, actualy it is true. Look at my yearly consumption here. If I add yearly assurance (96€), registration (3€) and regular service (45€), running cost rise to 1,6 euro cent/km in first 13 months of driving C-Zero.

Sorry, but I do not believe you! To understand me, see the video: http://www.tv3play.ee/play/301364/
Each charging in this video costs 5 €. And total distance between the two cities is only 185 km (x2).
I put the route on Google map and added charging stops. In the way back from Tartu the journalist omitted Paide (tried Mäeküla, but the charger was not working there). So he had to switch off heating, radio, navigation and to continue with frosted windows and freezing interiour temperature until Kose.
The journalist made his own calculation about the cost, but he forgot to take into account initial charging (Tallinn) and he forgots monthly payment for fast charging network service.
The trip took 12 hours! And time is money!

You have other options in Estonia. It's true solar panels are not efficient in winter time, but what about spring and summer months, when you have longer days as we have?

We have relatively few sunny days even in summer months. And I personally prefere to use bicycle for short distances in summertime than EV. Our dark/cold season starts from September and lasts up to the middle or somtimes even to end of April. Do you suggest to use EV only for 4 summer months?

 

[Don]

We have relatively few sunny days even in summer months.

Your many negative comments about your country in this thread are making me wonder . . . . why would anyone choose to live there?

Don

 

[Kuuuurija]

We have relatively few sunny days even in summer months.

Your many negative comments about your country in this thread are making me wonder . . . . why would anyone choose to live there?

Don

Mentioning a fact is not negative nor positive. Negative or positive can be humans attitude towards the fact.

 

[Zelenec]

Well, actualy it is true. Look at my yearly consumption here. If I add yearly assurance (96€), registration (3€) and regular service (45€), running cost rise to 1,6 euro cent/km in first 13 months of driving C-Zero.

Sorry, but I do not believe you! To understand me, see the video: http://www.tv3play.ee/play/301364/
Each charging in this video costs 5 €. And total distance was only 370 km.

You have other options in Estonia. It's true solar panels are not efficient in winter time, but what about spring and summer months, when you have longer days as we have?

We have relatively few sunny days even in summer months. And I personally prefere to use bicycle for short distances in summertime than EV. Our dark/cold season starts from September and lasts up to the middle or somtimes even to end of April. Do you suggest to use EV only for 4 summer months?

I carefuly registered every charging in first 13 months and all data is there. Sure, I drive my C-Zero like EV should be driven: slow and featherlight. I plan to drive it for many years, so I have to do everything possible to preserve battery health. Our electricity price is 8,7 €C/kWh. 5€/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia? NoGo! Please, take a look at official pricelist of CHAdeMO charging in Estonia here. So, if you take Volume Package, you'll pay 0,2€/kWh. For Nissan Leaf it costs 3,5€ for 0-80% fast charging the most. If you charge at home, the price is only half of that.Here I see 1 kWh costs 0,11€ in Estonia. If you charge empty Leaf battery (24 kWh) to 100% SOC, you pay only 2,7€ at home. My car has 16kWh battery. For full charging (17,5 kWh; including losses - wall to wheel) I pay 1,52€ and I make easily 150km before first recharging. That's it, if you believe or not.

Well, I don't suggest you to use EV for 4 months yearly. I mentioned your long summer days regarding useability of solar power in Estonia. Like I mentioned: you have excellent conditions to use wind power, which is available 12 months/year.

Some of your cons against driving EV are really ridiculous, some are understandable. EV is not equaly usable for everybody and for every geographic area. For me, EV is 100% winn-investment, for somebody living in for example Estonia, who is not ready to adjust driving habits, EV is not acceptable at all.

 

[Zelenec]

To understand me, see the video: http://www.tv3play.ee/play/301364/
Each charging in this video costs 5 €. And total distance between the two cities is only 185 km (x2).

What are you pointing at with this video? That EV is not ideal for long trips in winter conditions? Guess what! I admit that and every I-miev driver knows that. We certainly didn't buy EV for driving 300 km at -20C, although it's obviously possible. My EV covers almost every need for transportation of my family. If we make very long trips, more than 300km - I switch cars with somebody, who is excited to drive EV for few days or weeks.

 

[Barbagris]

Kuuuurija, everybody understand that EV cars is not for everyone.

Now, a couple of facts. Of course, applicable to my case (in Spain), and not for Estonia, probably.

When I was charging the car before leaving for work (5:00 a.m.), nearly half of the electricity came from wind (see "generation mix"). Coal was 5.2%. Hydropower was negative, because there is excess electricity and use it to pump water up. Of course, electricity producers wants more electric cars charging at night.

And my fuel costs for the car has gone from 200 euros/month (gasoline) to 20 (electricity, cheaper at night).

I have a electricity meter in the line I use to charge my car and a spreadsheet with the numbers. Facts, not a opinion.

Regards from the other side of the continent