Electric vs gas

[archie_b]

It's winter in Wisconsin and cold/snow takes it toll on both EV and gas cars. My 4cyl Accord that averages 33 mpg during warm weather is now averaging 25 mpg. With gas at $3.60 a gallon locally that works out to about $0.11 and $0.145 per mile respectively.

I drive a Volt and have enjoyed it. The Volt is my 3rd EV dating back to a Citicar in the 1970s. To get the most out of the Volt I am on time of day service. This reduces my cost to recharge to $0.055 per kwh. I do 99% of my charging during off peak periods as charging during peak times is $0.19 per kwh. During warm weather I get 5 miles per kwh. In winter weather this drops to about 2-3 miles per kwh. This works out to $0.011 and $0.022 per mile respectively.

Overall the Volt is about 10 times cheaper to operate than a very fuel efficient 4 cyl Accord. The Volt will require one oil change during my 3 year lease. The Accord will require five oil changes in the same period. Otherwise maintenance is the same; tire rotations and not much else as both cars are under full warranty.

Cold weather brings out the major shortcoming of EVs; interior comfort. Reading posts about blankets, heat lamps, heated clothing, etc. all point out the one problem with an EV in winter; interior comfort. I have a blanket and as long as the windows stay clear I can accept the colder interior. My wife tends to disagree with me.

Nine months a year I love my EV. The other 3 months, I still enjoy it, but hope interior comfort improves when my lease is up 2 years from now.

 

[Don]

5 miles per kwh is an extremely good number for a vehicle as heavy as a Volt - Most iMiEV's would be hard pressed to match that, even though the car is nearly 1000 pounds lighter. You must be regularly getting 50 miles or so of pure EV driving on each charge??

Interior comfort isn't a big issue for us . . . . we don't live in Wisconsin. I do agree that EV's have much more efficient cooling systems than heating systems though. I think if I lived in a cold climate I would probably invest in one of the tiny diesel or kerosene powered heaters which you can insert in the water line between the OEM heater and the interior heating radiator. It would probably burn only a cupful or so of fuel per hour and do a much better job of keeping the interior warm while at the same time not taking such a big ding out of the range

If you could somehow reprogram a Volt to allow you to use all of the battery (instead of only 10kw as it's now limited to) I think I would have been more interested in getting one - With your 5 miles per kwh, it could then be driven about 80 miles on a charge . . . . . which means that after a year of use, I'd still have most of the free tank of gas the dealer gave me when I bought the car! :mrgreen:

Don

 

[DonDakin]

Hello,

As far as very cold winter driving goes. That's the same conclusion that I made.

Please Mitsubishi/Nissan put a small fossil fuel burner in the hot water loop in the future. I would suggest it be part of a cold weather option package. There is really 2 reasons for this:

1) Help Maintain range (albeit for voltage sag) in winter/summer.

2) Don't force the General public to get creative to stay warm or sacrifice comfort to Drive an EV in the very cold climates.

I think this would make a big difference in terms of widespread adoption of EV's in cold climates.

The Volvo EV is putting this in as standard. It really makes sense especially if it's factory installed. A pretty simple thing to add to the car and really of great value to the overall driving experience.

I'm sure this will happen in the next few model years as the feedback gets back to the OEM's

Don......

 

[archie_b]

This is in response to Don's comments. The Volt is EPA rated for a 34 mile range and, like other i owners, I get significantly better; 52-54 mile range. The display in the Volt only goes up to 50 but I usually go 2 to 4 miles before the range starts to drop. As much as possible I stay off expressways and use 55 mph or less roads. I drove a 3 cyl Insight for 12 years before the Volt and I use many of the techniques I used when driving that car on the Volt. I am not a hypermiler but I do drive with a helium foot.

For DonDakin; I agree 100% with your comments on a small fossil fuel heater. The Volt already carries fossil fuel but uses it to run a 1.4l 4 cyl engine when it gets really cold to help keep the cabin and battery warm. Not a good solution. Would be nice if Chevy offered a block heater for the 1.4l. Nope, none available. I last put gas in the Volt the last week in December and still have 3/4 of a tank. All of the gas used was due to low temperatures and the Volt starting the engine whether I wanted it or not. Don't like it, but have no control over it.

I do have a green triangle on the back of the Volt. It states Drive, Easy, Conserve with a pine tree in the center. Drive easy is exactly the way I try to drive. I've been using it for 5 years on my cars. More information at http://www.greenslowmovingvehicle.com .

 

[NeilBlanchard]

Aerodynamics need to be taken into account - the Model S gets almost as efficient as say the Leaf and yet the Model S weighs about 1250 pounds more. The Leaf has a Cd of 0.29 and the Model S has a Cd of 0.24. The frontal area of the Model S is about 25% great (WAG) so the Cd difference of 0.05 is about equivalent to 1,500 pounds.

And the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' (runner up in the X-Prize) weighs just 2,900 pounds and has a Cd of 0.23 and a frontal area probably 25% *less* than the Leaf - uses just ~162Wh/mile. That's 6.1 miles/kWh.

 

[Don]

Aerodynamics need to be taken into account

. . . . *if* your primary purpose in designing an EV is to make it go as far as possible for any given motor/battery combination. If on the other hand you're designing a car to be good at what we ask ordinary cars to do - that is carry occupants and a reasonable amount of cargo comfortably - then you build the car which does that and you live with a less than optimal Cd

IMO, redesigning an urban grocery-getter to be a couple feet longer so you could give it a nose and tail like a Honda Insight (or a Tesla S) just so it would go 5 or 10 more miles would be a huge step backward. Now if it was something you were designing to carry one or two adults rapidly down the freeway, that would be another matter entirely . . . . but if my iMiEV looked like an aerodynamic arrow at the expense of comfortably fitting 4 six footers plus cargo, then I wouldn't have bought it

I guess what I'm saying is . . . . you design your vehicle to be practical for what you want it to do, and I think Mitsu did an excellent job of that - I wouldn't change the layout or shape at all. If I wanted a Tesla, I would have bought one

I'm going to order one of Archie's green triangles - I know how to make my car go farther . . . . drive it slower. :mrgreen: I'm getting 75 to 80 miles per charge as it is . . . . and it usually takes me 2 or 3 days to go that far

Don

 

[tonymil]

. . . . *if* your primary purpose in designing an EV is to make it go as far as possible for any given motor/battery combination. If on the other hand you're designing a car to be good at what we ask ordinary cars to do - that is carry occupants and a reasonable amount of cargo comfortably - then you build the car which does that and you live with a less than optimal Cd. IMO, redesigning an urban grocery-getter to be a couple feet longer so you could give it a nose and tail like a Honda Insight (or a Tesla S) just so it would go 5 or 10 more miles would be a huge step backward. Don

I think most of us here would like to see electric cars replace gas engine cars, not just supplement them. That's why what Tesla and Nissan are doing is so important. The key to wide acceptance will be price, distance and charge time. Tesla is demonstrating that if the government helps with price, car companies can overcome the distance and charge time issues.

As for why I bought my i MiEV 9 months ago, it was the most economical all-electric car on the market. I needed a new car, I wanted an electric car, I could only afford something around $20k. The MiEV was the only car that met all three, plus I really like the car. But if an electric car had been available for about the same price that would have got me down to NYC or Long Island from Albany in about the same 2.5 to 3.5 hours it takes with a gas car, would I have bought it? Heck yes, even if it had much less headroom, a windshield that stretched out forever, and had less passenger and cargo room. Build me that car and I will buy it. Except for price and charging infrastructure, the Tesla model S is close.

So c'mon auto companies, in 4 years, 3 months I'll be ready to buy a car again, please aerodynamic the crap out of your cars if it get's me where I want to go without having to use a gas car and without adding hours to my drive time.