Expensive LED bulb fiasco

This is going to cost me---a lot. Most likely the most expensive LED bulbs I ever bought. For the last few weeks my I-MiEV traction control and stability control system kept shutting off after driving a few miles. I couldn't figure out what was going on. The ABS was working but the two warning lights kept coming on. Finally I took it to the dealer to see what was going on. They scanned the vehicle and said I had a code for a bad brake light switch. The switch was changed and they thought the problem was resolved. However, it started back up. To make a long story longer--they were at a loss and have starting changing everything in the system. Yaw and G sensor, steering wheel sensor and finally the whole ABS pump/computer and still the problem is there. Finally, I thought--brake light switch? Maybe it's the brake light circuit. Remembering I had changed the bulbs in the high mounted stoplight switch to LED's I wondered if that was connected in some way. My car is still at the dealer so I took the high mounted stoplight out of my other I-MiEV and went for a drive. Sure enough, the traction contol and stability control warning lights came on. Turns out the computer is monitoring brake light resistance and uses (it seems) the traction control and stability control warning lights to tell you there is a bulb out in the brake lights :twisted: ! I guess I feel stupid that I didn't put two and two together but the warning lights from a system that doesn't seem connected to the problem system threw me off. I guess I'll just go in Monday and face the music (with checkbook in hand).

So this is a word of warning about LED lights and cars that get angry when you mess with them!

Good to know - I hope your experience saves someone else from a similar problem

While I love LED's (I have them all over the house and have built my own LED covered circuit boards for turn signals and tail/brake lights on a couple old motorcycles which have anemic charging systems - It took 70 high power SMD LED's to make a brighter tail light than the stock one which had two 1157 bulbs) when it comes to the third brake light on my cars, I've tended to go the other way - When I hit the brakes, I want that light to be as bright as possible, so on a previous car I swapped out the standard incandescent brake light bulb for a 30 watt halogen bulb. When I looked in the mirror at a stoplight, I could see the bright red faces of the occupants of the car behind me :lol:

I'm not changing any of the lighting on the iMiEV - I find the stock lighting excellent and don't feel there is any appreciable range to be gained by swapping anything to LED's

Don

siai47, thank you for the heads-up! Strange cause-effect relationship. Sad that it is becoming more and more difficult to perform even minor mods to cars without risking some computer's wrath.

The biggest problem I see with converting a modern ICE car to an EV is having to deal with all its computer-controlled interlocks and alarm systems and not the actual hardware mods.

Hope you have an understanding and compassionate Mitsu service department. Maybe they will just thank you for educating them? :roll:

I got my car back from the dealer today and had a good talk with the mechanic. He said the problem I caused with the LED lights reducing the current in the brake light circuit also causes problems in other Mitsubishi vehicles if you increase the current. On vehicles where customers add a trailer hitch and then actually tow a trailer with lights, the computer senses the change (increase) in load and cuts off the traction control, stabilty control and cruise control. Boy, it would be nice to have that problem--an actual cruise control! I put the original bulbs back in and everything is all better.

I also have to give Kudo's to where it belongs. After all the grief I put myself and the dealer through I was pleasantly suprised when they told me I didn't need to pay anything for the work they did. So, thanks R.C. Hill Mitsubishi in Deland, Florida for putting up with me

Thanks for posting. I wonder if the car reacts like this when the side marker lights are changed out.

siai47 said:

... So this is a word of warning about LED lights and cars that get angry when you mess with them!

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jaraczs and Llecentaur discovered this problem and the solution two months ago:

jaraczs said:

Llecentaur said:

Also upgraded interior lights to a 46 Led panel. Number plate lights to LED and side lights to LEDs but with resistors to make sure there is no computer error.

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I have installed LED equivalents of W5W for plate illumination, side lights and center brake light (total of 10) with no resistors. ... after driving about 1 mile, the ASC dash light comes off (both of them) ... I cannot find in the manual that our car has the light bulb failure detection feature.

Update of 8/12/2013
The problem has been fixed. The ASC error message was related to the center brake lights having all 4 LEDs. The system tolerates 2 LEDs (out of 4). Did not try 1, though.

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Thanks to jaraczs and Llecentaur.

I don't know how I missed that post---It could have saved me a lot of fooling around if I had found it. That is exactly what happened to me. I did a search for LED sometime back and didn't see this either. Anyway, the side marker lights are not monitored and the LED's work fine in that application. Also, the 5 watt bulb in the headlight can be replaced with a LED without problems. Suprisingly, the headlight bulbs aren't monitored for operation. I don't understand why the computer would disable the traction control and the stability control system to warn you off a couple of burned out high mounted stop lamp bulbs---wouldn't it be better to illuminate the "brake" warning on the dash? Even the code that is picked up be the MUT III sends you to the brake light switch with no mention of the bulbs.

Though it would most likely defeat the purpose of having LEDs, but have you tried a resistor to make the car happy?

http://store.ledoption.com/LEDoption-50W-6Ohm-Load-Resistor-Equalizers-p/ledoption_50w_load_resistors.htm

Honestly, until I took some of the lights out (center brake in curiosity, side marker because of water in the lens), I thought the sides and brake lights were all LED.

I understand the nanny-computer brake light issue, but haven't seen any problem when using LEDs on the license plate (other than the cop who told me they were too blue!)
My interest is 99% in reducing parasitic loads. The brake lights don't spend enough time turned on to save many Watt-hrs, especially in B mode, and our lens design makes 'em look very similar to LED anyway.
The SE daytime running light is the best candidate for eliminating some Watt-hrs, IMHO. I just haven't taken the time to review those threads and source the lamps.

The daytime running light is a pain. It isn't monitored to you can disable it by removing the bulb or the fuse. The only LED's I have seen that will (?) fit are out of a Late model Camaro--but not the lastest model. User reports on these LED's are mixed at best as to fit and quality with many early failures. Nice white light but not very bright. Just google the bulb number and it will come up for the Camaro.

siai47 said:

The daytime running light is a pain ... these LED's are mixed at best as to fit and quality with many early failures ...

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+1
I agreed. The DRLs measured 32 Watts. That's not much, but they are on a lot.

The P13W LED replacement bulbs I got didn't fit in the MiEV DRL reflector mounts. The base PCB of the "corn cob" at the connector was too big. I had other G4 type LED bulbs and connected them to the old P13W connectors (with the bulbs removed). The one Watt each replacements were dim, but the two Watt each LED replacements were almost a bright as the original DRL bulbs, and I liked the color better. That worked, but I don't recommend it.

I recommend waiting until we found a quality DRL replacement that fits properly.

siai47 said:

I don't know how I missed that post---It could have saved me a lot of fooling around if I had found it...

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And I have missed your post to help you out. Our blog is perused with the same/related ideas being elaborated in parallel threads. I figured I have to just cope with it.

I found the best use of LED in the dome lights. Especially my kids love it because each of the three lights are of different color.

Another observation is that all of the W5W equivalent bulbs tend to burn out on my iMiEV but not on our VW Jetta TDI. Perhaps the high voltage of the DC/DC convertor? Or poor LED quality? Not sure.

I had the same issue with the LED's I was using as DRL's on my Miata. They would work fine for a few months and then burn out. Turns out it were voltage spikes killing them and I would need to install a regulated power supply in order to use LED's, so I went back to incandescents, which last lots longer

I always found it a bit odd that the iMiEV didn't come loaded up with LED's as opposed to just using them for the tail lights. Why aren't the interior lights, side markers, license plate light and the high mounted stop light LED's too? It would sure seem natural to do for an EV where every ,little bit of energy saved equates to a little bit of extra range, doesn't it?

I'm beginning to think Mitsu considered doing this, but for one reason or another they stayed with incandescents for some things - Probably not an oversight

Don

Don said:

I always found it a bit odd that the iMiEV didn't come loaded up with LED's
Don

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A dealer-installed option was available for the dome lights, plus a blue rope around the dash center section and a couple of blue domes for the front footwells. This was installed in my first car, being a first-off-the-boat ES. My dealer had given up on trying to add profit by the time my second car arrived, so I swapped the dome LEDs from #1 during the trade. They're a whiter light- just 3 LEDs on a circuit board.

I have replaced my daytime running lights with LED bulbs - they are much more effective (more noticeable due to the white light) and are still working 3k miles later... http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2244 MW

I suspect it's by design that the car disables ASC and traction control when it detects a significantly higher or lower draw on the rear lights - this is how it can tell you must be pulling a trailer that has lights on it, and therefore for safety the traction control is shut off - I'm pretty sure traction control could come on when it shouldn't when you're towing, so this is how the system detects it and disables it. The bright news for me and others who prefer to do away with the electronic nannies is this might be an easy way to disable them - just replace the rear bulbs with efficient LEDs...hmm...