HParkEV
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:33 am

Many people I've met in Canada that are opposed to EV's make arguments much like Kuuuurija, mostly based on what they read or hear from the US media, at least the part of the media that seems to be in the pockets of the oil industry.

They completely ignore the fact that in Canada we have the vast majority of the population living in Ontario and Quebec, where coal generation has been already phased out (Ontario just in the last week shut down the last coal power plant), about 80% of power in Ontario comes from hydro and nuclear sources, while Quebec is well over 90% hydroelectric power generation! All those arguments about how inefficient the grid is, or how you're just shifting the source of pollution, make completely no sense in Canada, but we get just as many of these wackos here! By now, I just shake my head and ignore.
2012 Ocean Blue SE (premium) Canada-spec
02/2012 production, 06/2013 delivery
Upgraded EVSE

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:26 pm

You wrote, that EV has 90% efficiency. And you claim, that in Canada you use only "clean" nuclear and hydro energy.

In cold climate up to 50% of electricity from batteries goes for heating of the EV. Only fool compares ICE cars fuel to traction with efficiency of EV-s electical engine. Those things are not comparable!
Charging has its losses.
Batteries self discharge.
Charger has losses.
Distribution net has losses.
Building and maintenance of transmition lines consume lot of energy and natural resources.
Even hydro and nuclear power plants have its self consumption.
It takes lot of resources and energy to build a hydro or nuclear plant. Nuclear plant consumes enriched uranium or other isotopes, that need huge amount of energy for mining and purification.
Nuclear wastes need long storage, and consume energy after depleted for reactor.
In case of catastrophy tremendous amount of energy is needed to clear pollution and lot of land will be unusable for several thousands of years.

ICE car can move without any electricity. You can press vegetable oil manually and use it in diesel engines.

Tankers are very efficient for transporting energy over long distances. Much more efficient than transporting electricity over long distance.
Cracking of gasoline does not demand much electricity at all.
How could you tell that EV is more energy efficient than ICE car? ICE car can be adjusted to consume generator gas. All you need is to feed some wood...

Clear indication of efficiency is that ICE cars usually do not need any government support for selling. But EV-s barely sell even with considerable aid from governments.

PV1
Site Moderator
Posts: 2994
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact: Website

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:41 pm

An ICE vehicle that gets 25 mpg burning gasoline uses 1,400 Wh per mile (35 kWh contained in one gallon of gasoline, traveling 25 miles on that gallon). Even at 50 mpg, an ICE still uses 700 Wh per mile.

An EV getting 100 MPGe uses 350 Wh per mile. In order to achieve the rated 62 miles in the i-MiEV, it achieves 136 MPGe, using 258 Wh per mile. Most of us easily exceed the 62 mile range estimate, so the i-MiEV in practice is even more efficient.

Even in the winter, using half of a charge to heat the vehicle, an EV uses 600 Wh per mile, still better than a 50 mpg ICE vehicle.

These figures are for onboard energy only, not including charging, BUT:

From the wall, I measure total energy consumed by the vehicle, including losses from charging, balancing, and even consumption from the EVSE itself. With these losses factored in, I still only use between 250 and 300 Wh per mile.

I generate my own solar energy, so the energy used by my i-MiEV only travels through 250 feet of wire as electricity. ZERO emissions generated from driving. Very minimal losses through transmission. This is something no ICE vehicle can claim.
:idea: :idea: :idea: :!: :!:

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RobertC
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am
Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:53 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:Nonsense.

Please ignore.
”Red” - 2018 Red Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive Tesla Model 3 - 11/27/18
“Blue” - 2018 Kinetic Blue Chevy Bolt Premier with QC - 5/13/18
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Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:32 pm

PV1 wrote:An ICE vehicle that gets 25 mpg burning gasoline uses 1,400 Wh per mile (35 kWh contained in one gallon of gasoline, traveling 25 miles on that gallon). Even at 50 mpg, an ICE still uses 700 Wh per mile.

An EV getting 100 MPGe uses 350 Wh per mile. In order to achieve the rated 62 miles in the i-MiEV, it achieves 136 MPGe, using 258 Wh per mile. Most of us easily exceed the 62 mile range estimate, so the i-MiEV in practice is even more efficient.

Even in the winter, using half of a charge to heat the vehicle, an EV uses 600 Wh per mile, still better than a 50 mpg ICE vehicle.

These figures are for onboard energy only, not including charging, BUT:

From the wall, I measure total energy consumed by the vehicle, including losses from charging, balancing, and even consumption from the EVSE itself. With these losses factored in, I still only use between 250 and 300 Wh per mile.

I generate my own solar energy, so the energy used by my i-MiEV only travels through 250 feet of wire as electricity. ZERO emissions generated from driving. Very minimal losses through transmission. This is something no ICE vehicle can claim.


You still forgot, that there are considerable power losses (losses in grid, self consumption of the power plant etc) before the electricity gets into your wall, and most combustion power plants have power production efficientćy less than 40%!
For nuclear energy please calculate, what cost Chernobyl and Fukushima etc.

You forgot, that for providing you power, the grid is neccessary, and huge amount of energy is wasted for building and maintaining the grid.

Zero emissions from driving? At least tires and road will wear, as you drive. For building soolar panel there has to be wasted more energy than the panel will ever give.

alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:56 pm

Kuuuurija, you're acting as if electricity generating facilities and transmission networks would not be necessary if EV's didn't exist. However, this infrastructure was already available prior to the first sale of a mass-produced EV. The additional electricity needed by EV's costs very little because of this. Studies have indicated that no additional generation or distribution capacity will be needed even when the number of EV's increases considerably.

This is totally different from the situation with the gasoline and diesel needed by ICE vehicles. Petroleum refineries would still exist to produce petrochemicals for use in plastics, etc., but far less petroleum would be needed, so the considerable ecological damage petroleum causes would be minimized. But the huge, expensive, polluting (many leaks) gasoline and diesel distribution system would not exist, so its costs need to be allocated to ICE vehicles. As a result, there's just no way that ICE vehicles can compete with BEV's in terms of overall efficiency.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:46 pm

alohart wrote:Kuuuurija, you're acting as if electricity generating facilities and transmission networks would not be necessary if EV's didn't exist. However, this infrastructure was already available prior to the first sale of a mass-produced EV. The additional electricity needed by EV's costs very little because of this. Studies have indicated that no additional generation or distribution capacity will be needed even when the number of EV's increases considerably.

This is totally different from the situation with the gasoline and diesel needed by ICE vehicles. Petroleum refineries would still exist to produce petrochemicals for use in plastics, etc., but far less petroleum would be needed, so the considerable ecological damage petroleum causes would be minimized. But the huge, expensive, polluting (many leaks) gasoline and diesel distribution system would not exist, so its costs need to be allocated to ICE vehicles. As a result, there's just no way that ICE vehicles can compete with BEV's in terms of overall efficiency.


Do you understand, that power lines have its capacity and it must be much higher if many EV-s are charged?
No additional generation or distribution capacity will be needed? Think again! EV is not a Perpetuum mobile!
The same logic was if I say, that Gasoline stations are there even if I do not consume gasoline at all, so my consumption does not add any additional oil consumption.

RobertC
Posts: 292
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:35 am
Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: Environmental Question

Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:21 am

alohart wrote:Kuuuurija, you're acting as if electricity generating facilities and transmission networks would not be necessary if EV's didn't exist. However, this infrastructure was already available prior to the first sale of a mass-produced EV. The additional electricity needed by EV's costs very little because of this. Studies have indicated that no additional generation or distribution capacity will be needed even when the number of EV's increases considerably.
You are absolutely correct. The University of Delaware (my alma mater) has built a working model using vehicle-to-grid technology (V2G) to connect 15 electric vehicles to the power grid and supply power back to the grid from the vehicles batteries during peak load. The majority of electric vehicle charging can be done during off-peak hours when the existing electrical grid has plenty of capacity and will not need to be upgraded.
http://www.udel.edu/udaily/2013/may/veh ... 50213.html

Additionally, electric vehicle batteries can be repurposed to supply power back to the grid once the batteries have reached the end of their life in an automotive application (at about 70 percent of the battery's original capacity). GM and ABB have demonstrated a working model using Volt batteries.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news ... reuse.html

As an electrical power engineer I find these new technologies very exciting.
”Red” - 2018 Red Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive Tesla Model 3 - 11/27/18
“Blue” - 2018 Kinetic Blue Chevy Bolt Premier with QC - 5/13/18
"Purple" - 2012 Raspberry Metallic ES with QC - 4/10/2013

benswing
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:35 pm
Location: Montclair, NJ

Re: Environmental Question

Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:52 am

There are quite a few research papers that have looked at this problem and all of them come to the conclusion that electric vehicles eventually are better for the environment over the lifetime of the car when powered by coal fired power plants. This benefit is greater and happens sooner if power is provided by renewable energy.

The assumptions made by Kuuuurija are vastly out of proportion with real data available from reliable sources.

Here is one of the research papers written on the subject:

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/media_I ... rh-ptd.pdf

"After our base case, sensitivity analysis, and uncertainty analysis, all of our results point to one main finding: a BEV is more energy efficient, and less polluting than a CV."
Driving Electric since 2007: Vectrix VX1 - 2007-2010, Zero S ZF9 - 2012-Present, Mitsubishi iMIEV - 2013 - 2015

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2903
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Environmental Question

Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:15 am

Your comments that EV's in cold climates use 50% of their power to heat the car just proves that you don't own one . . . . and that you're going to ridiculous lengths to try to justify your use of fossil fuels to power your own gas burner!

Kuuuurija wrote:Do you understand, that power lines have its capacity and it must be much higher if many EV-s are charged? No additional generation or distribution capacity will be needed? Think again! EV is not a Perpetuum mobile!
Power plants adjust their capacity downward for evening and nights when most businesses are not using the power they do during the day and when air conditioning loads are less and that's when most EV's are charging - Overnight. If we had 50 million EV's charging overnight, we wouldn't be overloading the existing grid . . . . we'd actually be doing the power plants a favor, as they operate most efficiently nearer their optimum capacity than they currently do at night scaled back to half throttle

The same logic was if I say, that Gasoline stations are there even if I do not consume gasoline at all, so my consumption does not add any additional oil consumption.
Sorry, but that's not 'logic' at all. When you consume a gallon of gasoline, it's one less gallon left in the world - It's GONE

When you use off-peak electricity and that causes the power plant to operate in a more efficient manner, you really are getting something nearly for nothing, with nothing consumed. Many hydro plants now use this excess power to pump water back up behind the dam so they can use it again to generate power during the day - They'd much rather sell it to someone, anyone overnight, off-peak than to use it to the way they are now

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon, 14,000 miles
1979 Honda CBX six into six

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