Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:40 am

Zelenec wrote:I carefuly registered every charging in first 13 months and all data is there. Sure, I drive my C-Zero like EV should be driven: slow and featherlight. I plan to drive it for many years, so I have to do everything possible to preserve battery health. Our electricity price is 8,7 €C/kWh. 5€/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia? NoGo! Please, take a look at official pricelist of CHAdeMO charging in Estonia here. So, if you take Volume Package, you'll pay 0,2€/kWh. For Nissan Leaf it costs 3,5€ for 0-80% fast charging the most. If you charge at home, the price is only half of that.Here I see 1 kWh costs 0,11€ in Estonia. If you charge empty Leaf battery (24 kWh) to 100% SOC, you pay only 2,7€ at home. My car has 16kWh battery. For full charging (17,5 kWh; including losses - wall to wheel) I pay 1,52€ and I make easily 150km before first recharging. That's it, if you believe or not..

Our electricity price is near to 20€C/kWh (because of renewables tax, thank God we have only small share of renewables).
And 5 €/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia is real - see the Flex packet on the site you linked here. If you do not pay 10 to 30€ per month additionally, then 5€ is the exact price for one charging. Maybe if you take such ride every day, it will be cheaper to pay 30€/month for the Volume package to get lower rate (1.2 €/charging), but, hey, who can spend 12 hours per trip each day if by regular car it takes only 4 hours!
And please note, that the rate is per charging, not per kWh, so you can not calculate per kWh. If you choose the Volume package, you have to pay 30 € per month even if you do not use CHEdeMO stations at all!

Zelenec wrote:Well, I don't suggest you to use EV for 4 months yearly. I mentioned your long summer days regarding useability of solar power in Estonia. Like I mentioned: you have excellent conditions to use wind power, which is available 12 months/year..

Unfortunately wind is not there when there are frosty winter nights and power consumtion is at the top. Usually wind stops here in the evenings and starts blowing again in the morning. So it can not be reliable source for offpeak charging...

Zelenec wrote:Some of your cons against driving EV are really ridiculous, some are understandable. EV is not equaly usable for everybody and for every geographic area. For me, EV is 100% winn-investment, for somebody living in for example Estonia, who is not ready to adjust driving habits, EV is not acceptable at all.

Congratulations to you!
But if you compare EV vs ICE, be fair and take into account also driving habits. If you drive slowly and with frozen windows, then you create lot of dangerous situations, when others have to pass you (like in the pointed video) etc. If you promote your achievments, do not forget to mention that also!
Last edited by Kuuuurija on Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:02 am

Zelenec wrote:What are you pointing at with this video? That EV is not ideal for long trips in winter conditions? Guess what! I admit that and every I-miev driver knows that. We certainly didn't buy EV for driving 300 km at -20C, although it's obviously possible. My EV covers almost every need for transportation of my family. If we make very long trips, more than 300km - I switch cars with somebody, who is excited to drive EV for few days or weeks.

I am pointing at the fact that even Leaf needs 8 charging stops per 370 km to drive safely and comfortably. Promotional data about the driving range and efficiency is BS! This affects environmental aspect also. BTW the temperature was -11C to -15C only, not -20C.

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:26 am
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Contact: Website

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:45 am

A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

fjpod
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am
Location: NYC

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:50 am

yawn

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:52 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.

HParkEV
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:14 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:15 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.


That definitely holds true if there is no difference between 'renewable' and 'non-renewable'. Unfortunately, the difference is diametric.
2012 Ocean Blue SE (premium) Canada-spec
02/2012 production, 06/2013 delivery
Upgraded EVSE

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:37 pm

HParkEV wrote:
Kuuuurija wrote:I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.


That definitely holds true if there is no difference between 'renewable' and 'non-renewable'. Unfortunately, the difference is diametric.

The difference is in your head only! All those "renewable" systems use non-renewable resources.

Don
Site Moderator
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:46 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:A typical plug-to-wheels efficiency is about 85%. But with renewable energy, the loss really doesn't matter, as long as you can generate enough electricity for your needs.

I think there is no difference with the ICE car case. As long as you can pump enough gasoline for your needs, you do not have to worry about the fuel economy.
I *knew* there was something I needed to do today - Get the pump on that gasoline well in my backyard working so I can drive my ICE's for FREE! :lol:

Seriously, though - We've had our iMiEV for 18 months now and I don't think I've spent $100 for gasoline in all that time. Where we used to spend $50 to $60 every month (currently, gasoline here is $3 US per US gallon) we're now spending about $15 per month for electricity. No ChaDeMo charges here . . . . nor any charges for any public charging at all, as we don't have ANY public recharging stations here. All charging happens in our garage

No matter how we measure it, our transportation expenses are now less than 1/3rd of what they were before we bought the EV

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, Raspberry Metallic
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon
2006 Itasca Navion Sprinter Motor Home

Zelenec
Posts: 265
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:21 am
Location: sLOVEnia
Contact: Website

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:33 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:Our electricity price is near to 20€C/kWh (because of renewables tax
I can't imagine you have to pay almost 100% of renewables tax on electricity bill.
Kuuuurija wrote:thank God we have only small share of renewables).
That's why you have to pay such abnormal ren. tax ;)
Kuuuurija wrote:And 5 €/charge at CHEdeMO station in Estonia is real - see the Flex packet on the site you linked here. If you do not pay 10 to 30€ per month additionally, then 5€ is the exact price for one charging. Maybe if you take such ride every day, it will be cheaper to pay 30€/month for the Volume package to get lower rate (1.2 €/charging), but, hey, who can spend 12 hours per trip each day if by regular car it takes only 4 hours!
You really don't understand the meaning of city car. Every vehicle has it's purpose. Once again: I didn't and wouldn't buy an EV to make 300km daily. I dont usualy need to charge but nights at home. That is what EV is made for. But wait for few years. You might be surprised about progress of EV technology. Like you never dreamed of smart phones back in early 90's carrying awkward heavy mobiles, you can't imagine the range and charging times of future EVs.
Kuuuurija wrote:And please note, that the rate is per charging, not per kWh, so you can not calculate per kWh.
I don't understand how you can not calculate. If I charge 16 kWh and I pay 5€, it comes out 0,31€/kWh. But nobody is forcing you to charge at public stations unless you can't charge at home.
Kuuuurija wrote:If you choose the Volume package, you have to pay 30 € per month even if you do not use CHEdeMO stations at all!
Hmm, why would anybody buy Volume package, if he doesn't need it?
Kuuuurija wrote:Unfortunately wind is not there when there are frosty winter nights and power consumtion is at the top. Usually wind stops here in the evenings and starts blowing again in the morning. So it can not be reliable source for offpeak charging...
Do you really have power usage peaks at night in Estonia? That's unicum in EU.
Kuuuurija wrote:If you drive slowly and with frozen windows, then you create lot of dangerous situations, when others have to pass you (like in the pointed video) etc. If you promote your achievments, do not forget to mention that also!
Yes I drive slowly on local streets. It's kind of normal. No frozen windows last winter. We don't have so harsh winters in Mediterranean. So no danger to others at all.
Tired of smelly garage - switched to EV in 2012!
Zelenec = Greeny, Treehugger, Ecofan
www.mojev.si

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:17 pm

Don wrote:I *knew* there was something I needed to do today - Get the pump on that gasoline well in my backyard working so I can drive my ICE's for FREE! :lol:

Are you saying, that renewable is for free?
Do you agree with NeilBlanchard that if something is labelled as renewable, then it does not matter how efficient or inefficient is use of that resource? Let's cover all fields with solar panels and replace all forests with wind generators, then we do not need to worry any more, about how much energy we are wasting? From where come all the metals and other resources for this and what we gonna eat or drink after that, this is not a concern - we are proud: we use RENEWABLE!

Don wrote:No matter how we measure it, our transportation expenses are now less than 1/3rd of what they were before we bought the EV

Congratulations to you! I do not know what was your previous car and how thirsty it was. I do not know what are the gasoline and electric power prices for you. And I do not know if roads in your country are financed from gasoline tax or from some other tax. Here in Estonia EV owners do not contribute to roads and their only savings come at the expense of the other.
Some are proud to live at the expense of the other, but I was shamed if I'd live this way!

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