obrother
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:13 pm
Location: GTA Ontario, Canada

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:51 am

I'm about to install my aliexpress diesel heater. I was wondering what is the reason for plumbing the coolant valve/line to the top of the reservoir. Why not the bottom of the reservoir? Is it for simplifying the install? Has anyone tried putting it closer right at the heater core input? I was also thinking to have remote coolant valves to close off/shorten the loop for effiency but have enough opening for expansion. I will keep the electric heater in place. I was also wondering if someone has found a way to keep the electric heater element off but the computer still thinks it is on and closes the damper to force all the air through the heater core when you turn temp dial to red.

DonDakin
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm
Location: Montreal Quebec.....

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:21 pm

Thinking about it I don't see any difference in plumbing to the top or bottom of the reservoir. Which ever way works for you. I know if you plumb to the top you dont have to drain the system to get the heater into the heating loop.

As for the air flow in the heater core its pretty simple just flick the heater to one notch above green and then return to green. The damper will move to the heater core. It will stay there also even if you switch the car on and off. It only moves to the ac coil if you move the dial down to ac. Its not really a problem. I never really touch it all winter and when i do its usually from heat to green.

One thing that happened to me last winter on a very cold day is the fuel line froze or a least i think it did. If possible maybe you can route the fuel line along side or wrapped into the heater hoses. That way if the fuel line freezes then you can run the electric heat a little to un freeze it and then start the diesel heater. Thats the only tip i can give you something i never thought about when installing my heater.

Good luck with the install and post some pictures along the way.

Don.....

obrother
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:13 pm
Location: GTA Ontario, Canada

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:45 pm

I know in the winter diesel trucks use diesel antifreeze. My dad used to use it on his pickup truck. I'm not sure how that would work with the heater.


From the Webasto website:

All Webasto heaters are tested and approved to work in a temperature range from -30° to +40°C or more. The fuel used in very cold regions where temperatures can fall considerably under 0°C (arctic diesel or winter diesel) is automatically mixed with additives to prevent freezing of the fuel. Besides using this fuel, no special preparation of the heater is needed. Basically, if your vehicle can drive, your heater will run as well.

elekTrond
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:28 am
Location: middle of No(r)way

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:32 pm

@obrother #2: Our winterized diesel has a kerosene/paraffin mixture. :idea:
@obrother #1: I do not yet fully understand the reasons behind teeing in close to the top, other than easy access without a workshop lift. If you got the JP-Eberspächer/Espar style heater kit with the nice "double-tee with a one-way valve in it", then you can hook the two heaters up in parallel.

I like KISS, and believe a serial loop with only _one_ water pump should be fine. The official, norwegian (texted) Mitsu-Espar/Eberspächer install manual put the Espar in series, between OEM mitsuHeaterWaterPump and the OEM mitsuHeaterCore. I have also considered tee'ing in my diesel heater after the heater core, right before the heat exhanger register, for maximum energy delivery.

Image
#4 hose: official norwegian mitsuEberEspar
me: #5 if practical, if not #4, I suppose.
#2 hose: jaraczs, DonD, Ben Nelson +++ (thread TL;DR again ; )

The total amount of water is just a couple of litres (4.x ?), incl heater core and the expansion heater. Firstly I don't think it will slow down the initial heat up/defrost period much. Secondly the coolant probably won't loose much heat on its way via the heater core. Thirdly, I feel like more coolant to work with will give the parking heater a little more headroom to work with/in/within.

For the fourth, "engineering me" thinks #2 is the "worst" place. This makes for the longest cool-off route for the hot tap water to run. However, it may be providing the ultimate venting/bleeding spot for air locks...
Last edited by elekTrond on Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
// elekTrond von Norwegen - '13 mjau (int.eng.: miaow, mew, meow) reg 9/2012 - 750W@48V->52V BBS02

elekTrond
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:28 am
Location: middle of No(r)way

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:34 pm

ELECTRICAL:
I'm investigating locations of the nicest spots for hacking in electrial wiring. So far I've located (on-screen) the following POI's:
- 70 -COMPONENT LOCATIONS\A\Heater water pump relay
- 90 -CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS\AIR CONDITIONER<LHD>\HEATER WATER PUMP RELAY (A-114X)
- 90 -CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS\AIR CONDITIONER<LHD>\HEATER WATER PUMP ASSEMBLY (A-109)

- POWER DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM (CONTINUED)\#5-6\(23) 30A Blower relay
- 90 -CIRCUIT DIAGRAMS\AIR CONDITIONER<LHD>\#7-8\BLOWER MOTOR (B-10-2)
Note2self: The .no mitsu/eber/espar manual enter close to the blower motor itself (LHD, right side, behind glove compartment. Probably easier than struggling around the fuse/relax box, under LHD's steering wheel.
// elekTrond von Norwegen - '13 mjau (int.eng.: miaow, mew, meow) reg 9/2012 - 750W@48V->52V BBS02


elekTrond
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:28 am
Location: middle of No(r)way

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:27 am

@Phximiev: friend or foe, please tell Gavin to not install a fuel-heater inside the cabin :!: Are his price quotes dated 2016-10-15? I'll repeat the water/liquid/hydronic quote here:
€484,- liquid heater
+ €048 10 % import tax
+ €106 20 % VAT
+ €101 for a 12V Li-ion battery
= €739 (USD ~$810 )


@Phximiev: I have discovered two nice alternatives for Gavin and myself:
Binar 5 Compact and the brand new 2016 released Binar 5S.

I've talked to Denis at autoterm.eu earlier about Binar heaters this week. Turns out the €695,- I first posted is included both shipping and EU taxes. My (Norway) price is just €560,- incl. shipping, ex. local (25 %) VAT.
Denis: we send goods inside EUROPE for free via GLS transport service without any problem .
Please choose in shopping basket Norway and all EU taxes will deduct automatically.
// elekTrond von Norwegen - '13 mjau (int.eng.: miaow, mew, meow) reg 9/2012 - 750W@48V->52V BBS02

Phximiev
Posts: 1214
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:25 pm
Location: Phoenix

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:22 am

elekTrond wrote:@Phximiev: friend or foe, please tell Gavin to not install a fuel-heater inside the cabin :!: Are his price quotes dated 2016-10-15? I'll repeat the water/liquid/hydronic quote here:
€484,- liquid heater
+ €048 10 % import tax
+ €106 20 % VAT
+ €101 for a 12V Li-ion battery
= €739 (USD ~$810 )


@Phximiev: I have discovered two nice alternatives for Gavin and myself:
Binar 5 Compact and the brand new 2016 released Binar 5S.

I've talked to Denis at autoterm.eu earlier about Binar heaters this week. Turns out the €695,- I first posted is included both shipping and EU taxes. My (Norway) price is just €560,- incl. shipping, ex. local (25 %) VAT.
Denis: we send goods inside EUROPE for free via GLS transport service without any problem .
Please choose in shopping basket Norway and all EU taxes will deduct automatically.


Will do!
2012 iMIEV ES
2014 Chevy Volt

elekTrond
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:28 am
Location: middle of No(r)way

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:57 am

*** TL;DR :? Darn long post warning coming through! :lol: ***

So, I've discovered this brand new Binar 5S liquid water heater from en.autoterm.ru aka Advers/Binar/Planar/Teplostar. I saw a EU approval document datestamped 2016-10-28. In addition they have already sold a Binar 5 Compact model for some years.

Image Image
Click the pics for more info. Both models:
- cost €695,-/€560,- in/outside EU incl. shipping.
- come in kits/sets with a timer/control panel.
- can have a GSM remote added (€120,-/97,- in/outside EU incl. shipping.)
- are built for Siberian winters, approved for -45°C (that's like DARN cold in Fahrenheit!)

I've been in touch with Denis at autoterm.eu for more details. I have also plowed through the install/op/user manuals. I discoved they can be remote controlled with a car alarm or other remote controls with a relay. Therefore, hopefully, we can hack our Omron MiEV remote to switch a relay on/off.

Some key features I like about the 5S:
- German pumps and connectors
- 180° swiveling nipples for coolant water - easing the install
- thresholds for heat and re-heat aka cycle mode can be set individually
- heat->standby mode: 20-95°C (default 88°C)
- you can set "GO TO standby OR re-heat (cycle) WHEN target temp (20-95°C) is reached" (100°C = boiling point in the global metric system)
- heater fan startup between 30 and 60°C (default 40°C).
- water pump continues to run in standby mode. Nice for you who prefer 15 min on, 15 min off cycles for max heat-extracting
- run "water pump mode" in the summertime
- LED matrix diplay - works when LCD panels fade out in the cold

I said before this I'd cheapskate out on a $30 generic GSM relay modem, instead of that overpriced JP Espar/Eberspächer/Webasto GSM remote control box ($185 or ~$150 in combo with a JP heater set. But, just look at this nice Binar Simcom app:
Image

Manuals - in proper english:
Assembly instruction Binar 5S 1.64 Мб (Добавлен 28.06.2016)
Control Panel Binar 5s 1.61 Мб (Добавлен 28.06.2016)
Operating manual for Binar 5s 368.68 Кб (Добавлен 28.06.2016)
Operating manual for Binar 5B/5D-Compact ENG 911.18 Кб (Добавлен 04.02.2016)
Source: http://en.autoterm.ru/service.html

Videos:
5m31s: Engine preheater BINAR 5 UNBOXING (5 Compact unboxing @ autoterm.eu)
0m28s: 30 second turntable overview of Binar 5S
6m25s: Бинар 5 S обзор от студии АВТОЛИГА (Published on Oct 14, 2016)
6m25s: Binar 5 S review from AVTOLIGA studio NB! Youtube refuse to play through translate.google.com, atleast for me :?
Search Бинар (5S) for more clips!

Finland dealer network: https://autoterm.eu/en/dealers/
Global dealer network: http://en.autoterm.ru/dealers.html


TL;DR? :mrgreen: So, what you guys think? Especially those of you with JP heaters, since I have not landed a decision, yet. :roll:

For me - being in Europe, the Binar will cost me ~17 % more than a chinese knock-off, but still a fraction of a similar Espar/Eberspächer or Webasto. I also favor german quality parts, which I can expect to last a while - also after the warranty period.
// elekTrond von Norwegen - '13 mjau (int.eng.: miaow, mew, meow) reg 9/2012 - 750W@48V->52V BBS02

pluto
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:41 pm
Location: GTHA, Ontario, Canada

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:12 am

elekTrond wrote: Both models:
- cost €695,-/€560,- in/outside EU incl. shipping.


I found a site that sells Eberspächer units starting at €418 and Webasto units starting at €595 not sure why I'd want to spend more for a Russian built unit? Russia isn't exactly known for its reliable products...

I'm still a bit leery of buying the Chinese-made Ali Express units, I think I'd rather spend a bit more for a name brand.

The Eberspächer units seem to come either with the water pump built in or separate; any feedback on which is superior for this particular application?

I have not yet contacted the company to see if they will ship outside the EU / discount the VAT.

Edit: I also found this eBay seller listing the Webasto Thermo Top Evo 4 (Diesel) for €479; doesn't say anything about VAT but they do ship to the US/Canada. It appears that this listing does not include the installation kit or control module however (not sure what good it is without it, maybe if you already have these?); this listing has these included and is €709

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