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Aberdeen questions and responses.

Will there be a charge to the public for using the hydrogen refueling station? And if so, how much? Aberdeen response: "There will be a charge for the hydrogen. The amount has not yet been determined. No profit will be made. When selling hydrogen, Aberdeen City Council will do so in line with trading standards guidance on sales of gaseous fuel."
 
In addition to the hydrogen buses, how many of the Hyundai and Kangoo hydrogen hybrid vans do you have? Aberdeen response: "We have two HyKangoo vans – electric with fuel cell range extender and 2 hybrid transit vans – which uses a mix of diesel and hydrogen. We also have four Hyundai ix35 FCEVs."

Aberdeen also provided this link: http://www.hytrec.eu/Links/Links.aspx
 
Phximiev said:
Riversimple approved for use in South Wales:

http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/14546175.Hydrogen_car_trial_given_go_ahead_in_Monmouthshire/

You are aware that south whales could fit in a tiny corner of Arizona right - not much more than a playground (hope there are no Welshmen looking at this)?
 
Phximiev said:
Aberdeen questions and responses.

Will there be a charge to the public for using the hydrogen refueling station? And if so, how much? Aberdeen response: "There will be a charge for the hydrogen. The amount has not yet been determined. No profit will be made. When selling hydrogen, Aberdeen City Council will do so in line with trading standards guidance on sales of gaseous fuel."
 
In addition to the hydrogen buses, how many of the Hyundai and Kangoo hydrogen hybrid vans do you have? Aberdeen response: "We have two HyKangoo vans – electric with fuel cell range extender and 2 hybrid transit vans – which uses a mix of diesel and hydrogen. We also have four Hyundai ix35 FCEVs."

Aberdeen also provided this link: http://www.hytrec.eu/Links/Links.aspx

If I could take one vehicle to not expend efforts on making a hydrogen variant, it would be the Kangoo van. It's a cheap, horrible iteration of a light commercial vehicle... but I suppose good that they are taking the step.
 
LOL about the size of Aberdeen, but you could fit a lot of cities there, bury 'em in the dust!

It is a step; hydro-electrification efforts should work out the hydrogen bugs and economics if for no other reason than to provide competition to straight electrics.

Take the cost of the Aberdeen hydro-refueling station and factor it over the 10 or so buses and cars for 5 or 10 years and the initial cost of the station may become irrelevant. Add in the publics use and they may have a viable model.

Its a definite "we'll see" :!:
 
Phximiev said:
LOL about the size of Aberdeen, but you could fit a lot of cities there, bury 'em in the dust!

It is a step; hydro-electrification efforts should work out the hydrogen bugs and economics if for no other reason than to provide competition to straight electrics.

Take the cost of the Aberdeen hydro-refueling station and factor it over the 10 or so buses and cars for 5 or 10 years and the initial cost of the station may become irrelevant. Add in the publics use and they may have a viable model.

Its a definite "we'll see" :!:

Yeah, absolutely. The US has a much harder time switching to hydrogen and electricity that small countries like the UK for sure. For a start you have:

- A much larger area
- A far more severe climate at both ends, and a far broader range of climactics
- Many areas of low population density
- Far greater distances to travel
- 110 V grid
- Cheaper gas prices by a long way (on the demand-side)

In the UK:

- You are never that far (someone will of course correct me for being an ignorant Londoner) away from help.
- The area is comparatively small (longest drive in the UK is 857 miles, and that's literally very top to bottom left).
- A very temperate climate - never extremely hot or cold.
- Not that much isolation
- 240V grid in place
- High fuel prices that should help people switch.

Only snag is that it hasn't really happened to anything like the same way as Norway, but they are far richer than us on average, so they can afford to do it more easily.
 
Couldn't agree more, but what we have here are lots of are fleets of trucks, vans, and other assorted commercial vehicles wherein the use of hydrogen to assist with heavier transport makes some sense.

For instance, its one thing to have a battery and attempt to transport a 10,000 lb. of perishables (food for instance) 10-20+miles and another to transport it 200+ miles. If you look at the risk of losing the perishables load, this is more than likely not a risk that a commercial operator would accept.

But a hydrogen vehicle that can transport 300+ miles or a hydrogen range extended one (like the HyKangoo mentioned above) may change the risk perception.

The notion seems like it should work in fleets of commercial vehicles.
 
Here's an article that applies: http://insideevs.com/renault-developing-1-ton-electric-commercial-vehicle-155-mile-range/

This may be achievable now in fleets with hydrogen; again if the HyKangoo is available, why not a bigger commercial vehicle?
 
And here's a few hydrogen fuel cell sites for forklifts; perhaps good examples of fuel cell use in a fleet:

http://hydrogenforklift.com/home.html

http://www.nuvera.com/markets/industrial-mobility/forklifts

http://h2andyou.org/caseStudies_forklift.asp
 
siai47 said:
Could it be the owner of the Black Tesla Model S parked in the background near the end of the video?
In the fully charged thread, there is a video for the electric ATV. The front end of the same Tesla can be seen for a split second. I'd say it belongs to Robert.
 
More support for fleets: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-funding-fleets-to-be-early-adopters
 
Given the present, probable low number of hydrogen fleets in the UK tho, it may make a bigger difference to the winner.
 
Phximiev said:
Given the present, probable low number of hydrogen fleets in the UK tho, it may make a bigger difference to the winner.

If I had a business that could make use of a Mirai or two - I would certainly avail myself of it... got a Hydrogen filling station round the corner too.
 
Cool, how about the HyKangoo for a business fleet car?

http://www.symbiofcell.com/symbiov3/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/kangooZEH2_en2015-05.pdf

This is mentioned in a previous post in this topic.
 
Phximiev said:
Cool, how about the HyKangoo for a business fleet car?

http://www.symbiofcell.com/symbiov3/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/kangooZEH2_en2015-05.pdf

This is mentioned in a previous post in this topic.

Yes, I saw that - The Kangoo van is a high volume light commercial vehicle, extremely popular in Europe - you could liken it to the Transit Connect - that sort of thing. I've just booked a 5 seat diesel minivan variant for an upcoming Holiday of mine to the Canary Islands, so we shall see what the new one is like. They have certainly got better compared to older models, but it isn't the nicest or best made vehicle on the road. Yes, good for fleet as H2, but if I could choose that or a Mirai for anything other than carrying stuff, then the Mirai would win hands down - it is after all a Toyota, and it is built in Japan - two criteria in my experience that have marked out the most reliable types of vehicles.

I share a 2005 Citroen Berlingo van with my dad that has a LPG gas conversion and 1.4 ICE lump - it isn't a very good product, it is plagued with electrical gremlins. Which then tells me that it was fortunate for Citroen to source their EV from Mitsubishi. But then I picked it up 2 years ago for £500 - so it's not all bad - though the LPG stopped working last week.

The HyKangoo looks to be a 10K van with about 30K of drive train - the Mirai is about 25K of car with the same amount of drivetrain - so the car itself is better. Also the Mirai was designed from the ground up, while the HyKangoo looks to be a conversion of an E-Kangoo, which itself is a conversion of the ICE Kangoo - so I interpret it as a super-low volume post prototype vehicle, rather than the Mirai which is 'the real thing' - rightly or wrongly that may be. If you were to drive a Prius vs a normal Kangoo, I'd say the Prius would be about 15-20 years ahead in terms of manufacture and design.

But yes, any chance to get a H2 vehicle for cheap, and I would jump at that for the pure reasons of experimentation and intrigue.
 
Saw this on the conversion of Ford Transits to hydrogen (in Liverpool in the UK): http://ulemco.com

Sent them an email as to their volume and received the following reply:

_________
We've done 30 to date but have significant volume of enquiries for more. Focused at locations where there is hydrogen refuelling infrastructure

Regards

Amanda ( [email protected] )
_________

Might be worth a visit for a Londoner?
 
I've never been to Liverpool funnily enough... there's a British joke about your cars wheels not staying on the car for very long there.

I tend to head south rather than north... it's warmer there.
 
Despite the naysayers, the hydrogen folks are pressing forward: http://electriccarsreport.com/2016/06/europe-prepares-expand-hydrogen-refuelling-infrastructure-network-vehicle-fleet/
 
Phximiev said:
Despite the naysayers, the hydrogen folks are pressing forward: http://electriccarsreport.com/2016/06/europe-prepares-expand-hydrogen-refuelling-infrastructure-network-vehicle-fleet/

As a cynic on all levels until I see the concrete evidence, it is good to see Europe adopting a multilateral approach to the future of road propulsion. After all the people (about 50%) that knock the I-MIEV classing it as a 'toy' compared to their 200 HP car when they quiz me about it, it does follow through that the only way to move away from ICE is very gradually with a long lag phase, a multilateral approach that gives people the choice.

I.e a combination of Hydrogen, full EV, hybrid, PHEV, and ICE.

There is going to be a critical mass upon which point the R &D and production costs of EV fall (we are seeing that already), and then the gradual increase of production of ICE as the economies of scale get diluted - but that is going to take ages, though the people that pull the levers have been fully aware of this for a few years - even if those that drive them can afford to remain ignorant.

You cant educate people that aren't interested, but normally, for the average person, money saved is the driver. So until there is good enough choice and affordability, it wouldn't be a policy option to price people out of ICE for a good while. Even then there would be people fight to the bitter end, and there is a future for ICE for a long time. The only model I see is one where ICE subsidies that uptake to zero and very low emission, whether they like it or not. For no other reason than having cleaner air, I would really like to see that.

We all credit Tesla and the likes of Nissan for popularising the EV, but in my opinion Toyota have had the largest impact. Go back about 10 years and it was the initial move to hybrids that got all of this going, and anecdotally - I would have thought it was the hybrid club that most strongly correlate to the emergent EV club. I remember people laughing at the first Prius when they said it was part-powered like batteries - and the failures have been very small when considering the broadness of their roll-out. They certainly don't laugh anymore - and in fact they only laughed to begin with as a defence mechanism that they were too dumb or otherwise impaired to jump on the bandwagon.

Even as EVers, we are still not addressing the largest problem with road transport, and that is the driver. Clearly, the ultimate iteration has to be an autonomous fleet, which will be the ultimate mass transport system. I wonder how many of us would willingly give up that aspect of liberty for the obvious greater good - not sure I am there yet, but it is interesting, and I cant see why it wont definitely happen. Non-autonomous vehicles and all the old V8 sports cars can be used on specially designated areas. Road space, especially in cities, will be too valuable for moving people to work in.

In fact, I have been wondering if my 1 year old daughter will ever drive period. Most likely never a manual gear shift, or a diesel in London in future - it's just too dirty or antiquated for the type of roads we now have. Possibly not even a gasoline car if the alternative roll out gains enough traction. That will be interesting to watch.
 
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