Mitsubishi stupidity

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siai47

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
367
When I leased my first I-MiEV it was kind of as a joke. I drove by the dealer and there they were with zero down and a $99 per month lease. For that kind of money, why not get one for the heck of it. I drove a LEAF and had another car that ran on compressed natural gas (for longer range trips). It turns out that I really enjoyed the I-MiEV to the point that I tried to buy out the lease for a reasonable price and when that failed and the 10K rebate came, I bought another. After awhile, I noticed the LEAF wasn't being driven as I was always in the I-MiEV when driving around town. There is no doubt about it that the LEAF is a far better highway vehicle than the I-MiEV but the range on either car wasn't sufficient for taking any kind of a trip and the real range is only about 20 miles longer on the LEAF. I finally decided that I needed a highway capable car with more range. Last week, I returned the LEAF to the dealer, paid off the lease, and walked away. I placed an order for a Tesla model S sedan as a replacement. So why is Mitsubishi stupid? For starters, I had never driven, owned or been in a Mitsubishi dealer before I leased the I-MiEV. So impressed with the vehicle for what is caused me to look at other Mitsubishi offerings. I stumbled on the Outlander and when I found out there would soon be a PHEV version, I was hooked. I kept track of anything I could about it---even telling the dealer I would order one the minute they became available. However, the timetable kept slipping. Battery issues, sold out in Japan, Europe gets it first, selling everyone they make, available early 2014, late 2014, 2015? and so on. I finally gave up and bought something for twice the price that wasn't vaporware. The bottom line is Mitsubishi's stupidity cost them a customer and a sale---and many more as the demand for this vehicle is here now. By the time the Outlander PHEV comes to the US I fear either someone else will beat them to it in the market and/or Mitsubishi will cease to be in the US automotive business.
 
Yes, I've been beating this drum for months. You have the first truly road-trip-worthy PHEV (others lacking the passenger and/or cargo space to be practical) and your next stop after JDM (always the friendly gadget-happy place to shake out the bugs) is EUROPE? Great idea - because the first place I'd think of when looking for SUV buyers is Europe.

While I understand Mitsubishi's battery supply problems, that's no excuse for not bringing the vehicle to the right markets first. The Volt sells in decent enough numbers in the U.S., but mainly because it has no effective competition in the EREV arena (most PHEVs having much shorter EV range and the i3-RE being stupid expensive and under-powered in RE mode, with a goofy miniature gas tank). The Outlander PHEV's success may be proof of GM's shortsightedness in not green-lighting the MPV5, but of course it's making that case to GM as much as everyone else. Now it may be true that, while there's no reason to doubt the skills or sincerity of the Voltec team, there's good reason to doubt that GM leadership is any more committed to electrification than they were in the EV1 days (and we know how that ended). But if I'm Mitsubishi, structuring the rollout of this breakthrough vehicle on the assumption that GM won't respond is near-suicidally reckless.

Mitsubishi stupidity indeed.
 
Why are you thinking, that USA is the right market for EV-s and PHEV-s? Current sales show that Europe is better than US. Prices are higher here and number of cars sold is higher too. I can not see the reason why any EV manufacturer should prefer USA.
 
Kuuuurija said:
Why are you thinking, that USA is the right market for EV-s and PHEV-s? Current sales show that Europe is better than US. Prices are higher here and number of cars sold is higher too. I can not see the reason why any EV manufacturer should prefer USA.
I won't waste much time on this, as your comment suggests you didn't understand what I was saying, but just to clarify - the U.S. is very SUV-oriented. The Outlander-PHEV is a pretty huge vehicle by European standards, while in the U.S. it would be regarded as efficient family transportation. It would have very broad appeal in the U.S., and would really challenge the Volt's dominance of the "affordable" EV market here.

Perhaps more to the point, Mitsubishi's dealer network is hanging by a thread in the U.S. CEO Masuko has made it clear that Mitsubishi regards the U.S. market as essential for Mitsubishi to achieve its global objectives. If he's serious about that, he should realize that the Outlander-PHEV is their best bet for making a big splash here, as it will be the only EV on offer that directly meets mainstream market requirements (assuming it's priced reasonably). That's an opportunity they can't afford to ignore, since without a real hit, or at least a "halo" car, there is a very real risk that their dealer network could collapse in the next couple of years.

That's it. The point was regarding the Outlander-PHEV only, not EVs in general. I wanted to clarify that for the wider forum, not for you (as I long ago recognized the futility of that :roll:), so that's it for me on that subject.
 
You are free to disagree, but I think Mitsubishi acts very wisely, marketing PHEVs in domestic market and in Europe first.
In USA markets there are plenty of ICE SUV-s available and considering general hostility against Japanese cars and relatively low interest against EV-s and plugin hybrids in America it is wise to avoid this market.
 
I disagree. The US market is the market with the biggest demand of SUVs, and Mitsubishi could really sell the Outlander PHEV. If you want to really sell an electric vehicle to the masses, it will have to be in the form of an SUV or truck. Honestly, Tesla with their superchargers (unless CHAdeMO really takes off) would have the best chance of selling pure electric SUVs and trucks. The Outlander PHEV would suit the US quite well, and if brought to the US, could boost Mitsubishi's market share quite noticeably. Besides, the end-goal is to minimize the ICE and get ourselves off of oil.

Yes, there is sense to have American-made products, but it's not as hostile to Japan as it is China. It wouldn't surprise me if there were more Japanese cars on our roads than American cars.

There isn't a general hatred (car reviewers at large and oil companies excepted) against electric vehicles. There is a lot of misleading and flat-out bad information out there, though. Of all the places I've taken my i-MiEV and the people I've talked to, only a couple (2 or 3) have expressed a thorough dislike of the electric drivetrain. My most notable experience was a guy I had drooling over a Tesla Roadster. I had him going a while that it does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and other specs. Then he asked me what it had under the hood. I told him it was electric. Just like flipping a switch, he went off on a rant and walked away. He must have thought it was a Lotus or something. Other than that, genuine interest in my little EV. I've even had a few offers from people wanting to buy mine. Many people thought either electric cars weren't around or that Mitsubishi didn't have an electric car (a nod to their wonderful advertising :roll: )

Brainwashing has been done pretty extensively where I live. We have the towns of Oil City to the North, Coal Center to the northeast, and natural gas in, around, and through it all. There's also this bad perception that we have so many cloudy days that solar would never work around here (Pittsburgh). If we had a total of 2 weeks worth of overcast/rainy days between May and October, we would be lucky. Even on the news last summer. We were in the middle of a borderline drought, had one day of rain, and the reporters said, "Hopefully we'll dry out tomorrow and have some sun again." It was ONE day of rain in 3 weeks with nothing but clear skies and 90+ degree weather. How much sun do you want?! :twisted: :twisted: My solar array net generated an excess of 16 kWh in October with a decent number of overcast days, and the array isn't even built up to full capacity.

Sorry for the rant that went quite off-topic, but it just shows how shortsighted and mal-informed the public can be.
 
Kuuuurija said:
In USA markets there are plenty of ICE SUV-s available and considering general hostility against Japanese cars and relatively low interest against EV-s and plugin hybrids in America it is wise to avoid this market.
I live in the U.S. half-time and Sweden half-time, own an i-MiEV in the U.S. and a Honda Insight hybrid in Sweden which we have driven around Europe since 2009. I can tell you without question that hybrids are much more popular in the U.S. than in Europe where diesels have been Europe's answer to higher fuel efficiency.

I don't know how plugin hybrid sales compare in the U.S. vs. Europe, but I still don't see many PHEV's in Europe, especially compared with diesels. Norway and the Netherlands are exceptions due to their PHEV purchase incentives, but in Sweden, I rarely see a PHEV.

As to your assertion of hostility toward Japanese cars in the U.S., that might still be true in areas around manufacturing plants for American vehicles, but it is not true in most of the rest of the U.S. where the Toyota Camry has been at or near the most popular car sold in the U.S. for many years. In recent years, Kia and Hyundai have become very popular.

I don't know why Mitsubishi decided to sell its Outlander PHEV in Europe before in North America. It might be that Mitsubishi knew that it could not meet the initial demand in the large U.S. market or that its dealer network in the U.S. is pretty weak. But I know its not because of perceived hostility of Americans toward Japanese cars or relatively low interest in PHEV's in the U.S., especially compared with Europe.
 
I've been waiting with cash in hand to buy the Outlander PHEV. Wish it were on sale in the U.S.! Because of the delays I am considering the Model X or a PHEV from Volvo which may be in the U.S. this year (http://www.pluginamerica.org/vehicles/volvo-v60-plug-hybrid).
 
PV1 said:
Don't forget about the new Toyota RAV4-EV.
The RAV4-EV isn't new - it isn't even current, but based on the previous generation RAV4 (I assume they've had all the gliders warehoused somewhere for a couple of years to dribble onto the assembly line to meet their lame targets). It's a California-only compliance dodge, initially wildly overpriced, indifferently marketed, and probably both the least reliable Toyota AND least reliable EV you can buy - pretty much a rolling joke. So yes, DO forget about it.

Beyond all that, it's not really comparable to the Outlander P-HEV (the subject of this discussion). Unlike the OPHEV, the RAV4EV doesn't solve the range anxiety problem. It can go further than a LEAF, but not by much (EPA est. 103 mi. combined), and with NO quick-charge capability it is quite literally less roadtrip-worthy than our i-MiEVs w/CHAdeMO (and that's saying something). The OPHEV by contrast has a fantastic range extender, offering full performance from its ICE/RE when the batteries are exhausted (which is a lot better than you can say for a BMW i3), not to mention electric AWD. Mitsubishi figures it'll go 37 mi. on a charge and get about 44 mpg in hybrid mode; if the EPA numbers come in at 30 mi. and 40 mpg, it's going to be the first family-capacity vehicle that can realistically operate around town as an EV and cross-country as a hybrid. It would still be a game-changer today - but maybe not in another year or so, and certainly not if they slip the U.S. rollout yet again.
 
Really? I knew it was based on a slightly older bodystyle (I don't care about the new style anyway, the EV version looks better), but what kind of issues does it have? I thought being Tesla inside, it wouldn't have much any problems.

There's one in my area. I'll have to see how they got it.
 
PV1 said:
I knew [the RAV4 EV] was based on a slightly older bodystyle . . . but what kind of issues does it have? I thought being Tesla inside, it wouldn't have much any problems.

There's one in my area. I'll have to see how they got it.
Don't let Tesla's involvement fool you - they supplied the drivetrain and control electronics, but higher level functions and integration were up to Toyota, and corporate obviously didn't give a damn (they think electrics are stupid, and their H2 FCEV program suggests they think we are too). For a general sense, you can search over at plugincars.com for comments by Tony Williams, who owns one. The RAV4 EV's general flakiness is referred to repeatedly - it's not exactly a catastrophe, but by modern automotive standards it's unreliable. A favorite example: There's a charge scheduling feature that doesn't work on the 31st of the month.

It's easy to "get" a RAV4 EV anywhere in the country - just buy it in CA and have it shipped. But as bad as a RAV4 EV is in California, it's absolutely nuts to own one in PA. Tesla is not on the hook to provide warranty work, and outside of California no Toyota dealers have the equipment or training to work on the RAV4 EV's drivetrain, so it would have to go to Tesla if there was a hardware problem, and I'm pretty sure they're not going to do it gratis. You might be able to get Toyota to reimburse a Tesla dealer in Nevada for a problem you had with your CA-registered RAV4 EV on a road trip, but good luck getting them to do that on a regular basis on your PA-registered gray market special. By the time you go to all that bother, may as well get a dolled-up LEAF (it'll work about as well aside from trunk space) or spring for the Tesla.
 
Someone at Mitsubishi better proofread their site and how it shows on the iPad. The charge levels and ports are backwards, showing the CHAdeMO port as Level 1/Level 2, and the J1772 port as Level 3.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ffjrvpufwzu12bh/File%20Jul%2011%2C%2010%2033%2035%20AM.png?dl=0

That, and the 8-year warranty is still claimed. Aren't all the new ones covered for 10 years?
 
Re: RAV4 EV I've done 120 miles in one of these Toyeslas, and it's a great driving machine, but my friend the far-from-CA owner has had to return it to CA at least twice and wound up getting a new transaxle under warranty (after some wrangling). It's going to be difficult for him to maintain in the future.

Re: Outlander PHEV? Yes, Mitsu totally missed the boat and my enthusiasm for it has been completely replaced by the Pacifica Hybrid. Yes, Chrysler marketing is so clueless as to call a PHEV only a hybrid and they're doing nothing to build demand (press tours, reservations, etc..), but I've read up on the engineering and think it's sound. The gas version drives very nicely, and minivans are far more practical than midsize SUVs in practically every consideration. The main thing I wouldn't want to do in a FWD minivan is try to pull a 3500 lb boat up a launching ramp... Otherwise, for hauling people, pets, or plywood- the minivan is a better family hauler.
 
My suspicions are that where in Europe the I-MIEV seems to now be discontinued, you still have them in the US. It's that initial inertia to test the market that led to the Outlander PHEV selling in Europe first after Japan.

It would be foolish of Mitsubishi to roll out to the US if uptake of the I-miev was actually higher in Europe, as they can sell every one made in Europe today.

The Outlander PHEV came to the UK really early, as it's a right hand drive market, so easier to supply. It is probably the case that they are exhausting I-MIEV parts contracts to supply the NA market, once that's done they could then discontinue and convert that line to the PHEV??? I'm not sure, but it could make sense to me. However, it takes a long time to tool up a new production line, and I wouldn't be that surprised if they are planning to expand production in Japan, and then look to foreign market production in the same way Nissan did with the Leaf. The other thing to bear in mind is that we pay more for cars in Europe (we pay in £ or Euros what you pay in $ - so that means more profit for the manufacturer).

The savings in Europe are also much higher, as electricity is not hugely differently prices, but fuel is - vastly more expensive, so you have a more accepting population I would have thought, AND shorter distances between places.

There are literally thoudands of Outlander PHEVs in London. Anyone with half a brain would choose one over the awful Range Rover/ BMW/ Mercedes series. https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=outlander+phev&commit=Search.

Compared to a couple of thousand I-MIEVs: https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=miev&commit=Search

I am sure the PHEV will make it to the US at some point.
 
jray3 said:
Re: RAV4 EV I've done 120 miles in one of these Toyeslas, and it's a great driving machine, but my friend the far-from-CA owner has had to return it to CA at least twice and wound up getting a new transaxle under warranty (after some wrangling). It's going to be difficult for him to maintain in the future.

Re: Outlander PHEV? Yes, Mitsu totally missed the boat and my enthusiasm for it has been completely replaced by the Pacifica Hybrid. Yes, Chrysler marketing is so clueless as to call a PHEV only a hybrid and they're doing nothing to build demand (press tours, reservations, etc..), but I've read up on the engineering and think it's sound. The gas version drives very nicely, and minivans are far more practical than midsize SUVs in practically every consideration. The main thing I wouldn't want to do in a FWD minivan is try to pull a 3500 lb boat up a launching ramp... Otherwise, for hauling people, pets, or plywood- the minivan is a better family hauler.

There's something very Mazda 5 about the Pacifica (though I note that you dont get the Mazda 5 in the US). The Pacifica looks nice actually, but would I trust it... not sure. I'm afraid I have faith in Japanese produced vehicles, and little faith in anyone elses these days.

Golly, Chrysler don't exactly have the range of cars they used to do... only 4 of them, which is more than the UK, as they have stopped importing the brand now.
 
phb10186 said:
There's something very Mazda 5 about the Pacifica (though I note that you dont get the Mazda 5 in the US).
We used to, but it did so badly in newer crash tests (i.e. offset collisions) that sales (never strong) utterly tanked. I'm guessing Mazda could have fixed it in the next gen, but it sold so badly I doubt it would be a good investment. This is a shame, as it was probably the most efficient and comfortable way to ferry around six adults (everybody gets a window!), not to mention a heckuva lot more fun to drive than a minivan.

I find the Pacifica intriguing, but given FCA's track record, I wouldn't be willing to part with that kind of money on one just yet. If I was really interested, maybe I'd lease it to minimize the risk of it being a disaster and sticking me with, e.g., a 75% drop in resale value. Of course, if the lease deals are lousy because of crappy projected residual value, that might tell me everything I needed to know right off the bat. ;)

But honestly, for me personally the Pacifica is just way too much vehicle. The Outlander PHEV would have been a better fit for our household, since it's not too enormous to drive & park and day-to-day use would have been entirely within its EV range. The big cabin and cargo hatch would have been a luxury for road trips, as well as an occasional convenience for transporting furniture and the like. Too late, though - we got tired of waiting and replaced our 2005 Prius with a new 2016. So yeah, to our thread topic, chalk up one more in the "cost of stupidity" ledger.

I really do expect the O-PHEV to show up here eventually - I just don't know if anyone will care by the time it does. Nobody at MMNA should be surprised if 2014's "Gee whiz!" turns out to be 2018's "So what?"
 
I agree with the remarks about O-PHEV; hurry up or forget it.

BTW, have you run into member Aerowhatt, who also appears to live in Albuquerque?
 
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