siai47
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:54 pm

Mitsubishi stupidity

Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:42 pm

When I leased my first I-MiEV it was kind of as a joke. I drove by the dealer and there they were with zero down and a $99 per month lease. For that kind of money, why not get one for the heck of it. I drove a LEAF and had another car that ran on compressed natural gas (for longer range trips). It turns out that I really enjoyed the I-MiEV to the point that I tried to buy out the lease for a reasonable price and when that failed and the 10K rebate came, I bought another. After awhile, I noticed the LEAF wasn't being driven as I was always in the I-MiEV when driving around town. There is no doubt about it that the LEAF is a far better highway vehicle than the I-MiEV but the range on either car wasn't sufficient for taking any kind of a trip and the real range is only about 20 miles longer on the LEAF. I finally decided that I needed a highway capable car with more range. Last week, I returned the LEAF to the dealer, paid off the lease, and walked away. I placed an order for a Tesla model S sedan as a replacement. So why is Mitsubishi stupid? For starters, I had never driven, owned or been in a Mitsubishi dealer before I leased the I-MiEV. So impressed with the vehicle for what is caused me to look at other Mitsubishi offerings. I stumbled on the Outlander and when I found out there would soon be a PHEV version, I was hooked. I kept track of anything I could about it---even telling the dealer I would order one the minute they became available. However, the timetable kept slipping. Battery issues, sold out in Japan, Europe gets it first, selling everyone they make, available early 2014, late 2014, 2015? and so on. I finally gave up and bought something for twice the price that wasn't vaporware. The bottom line is Mitsubishi's stupidity cost them a customer and a sale---and many more as the demand for this vehicle is here now. By the time the Outlander PHEV comes to the US I fear either someone else will beat them to it in the market and/or Mitsubishi will cease to be in the US automotive business.

Vike
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:22 pm

Yes, I've been beating this drum for months. You have the first truly road-trip-worthy PHEV (others lacking the passenger and/or cargo space to be practical) and your next stop after JDM (always the friendly gadget-happy place to shake out the bugs) is EUROPE? Great idea - because the first place I'd think of when looking for SUV buyers is Europe.

While I understand Mitsubishi's battery supply problems, that's no excuse for not bringing the vehicle to the right markets first. The Volt sells in decent enough numbers in the U.S., but mainly because it has no effective competition in the EREV arena (most PHEVs having much shorter EV range and the i3-RE being stupid expensive and under-powered in RE mode, with a goofy miniature gas tank). The Outlander PHEV's success may be proof of GM's shortsightedness in not green-lighting the MPV5, but of course it's making that case to GM as much as everyone else. Now it may be true that, while there's no reason to doubt the skills or sincerity of the Voltec team, there's good reason to doubt that GM leadership is any more committed to electrification than they were in the EV1 days (and we know how that ended). But if I'm Mitsubishi, structuring the rollout of this breakthrough vehicle on the assumption that GM won't respond is near-suicidally reckless.

Mitsubishi stupidity indeed.
2012 Silver ES w/QuickCharge+DRL/foglights, Eaton Level 2 EVSE, since 9/9/2012

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:24 pm

Why are you thinking, that USA is the right market for EV-s and PHEV-s? Current sales show that Europe is better than US. Prices are higher here and number of cars sold is higher too. I can not see the reason why any EV manufacturer should prefer USA.

Vike
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:23 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:Why are you thinking, that USA is the right market for EV-s and PHEV-s? Current sales show that Europe is better than US. Prices are higher here and number of cars sold is higher too. I can not see the reason why any EV manufacturer should prefer USA.
I won't waste much time on this, as your comment suggests you didn't understand what I was saying, but just to clarify - the U.S. is very SUV-oriented. The Outlander-PHEV is a pretty huge vehicle by European standards, while in the U.S. it would be regarded as efficient family transportation. It would have very broad appeal in the U.S., and would really challenge the Volt's dominance of the "affordable" EV market here.

Perhaps more to the point, Mitsubishi's dealer network is hanging by a thread in the U.S. CEO Masuko has made it clear that Mitsubishi regards the U.S. market as essential for Mitsubishi to achieve its global objectives. If he's serious about that, he should realize that the Outlander-PHEV is their best bet for making a big splash here, as it will be the only EV on offer that directly meets mainstream market requirements (assuming it's priced reasonably). That's an opportunity they can't afford to ignore, since without a real hit, or at least a "halo" car, there is a very real risk that their dealer network could collapse in the next couple of years.

That's it. The point was regarding the Outlander-PHEV only, not EVs in general. I wanted to clarify that for the wider forum, not for you (as I long ago recognized the futility of that :roll:), so that's it for me on that subject.
2012 Silver ES w/QuickCharge+DRL/foglights, Eaton Level 2 EVSE, since 9/9/2012

Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:53 pm

You are free to disagree, but I think Mitsubishi acts very wisely, marketing PHEVs in domestic market and in Europe first.
In USA markets there are plenty of ICE SUV-s available and considering general hostility against Japanese cars and relatively low interest against EV-s and plugin hybrids in America it is wise to avoid this market.

PV1
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Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:30 am

I disagree. The US market is the market with the biggest demand of SUVs, and Mitsubishi could really sell the Outlander PHEV. If you want to really sell an electric vehicle to the masses, it will have to be in the form of an SUV or truck. Honestly, Tesla with their superchargers (unless CHAdeMO really takes off) would have the best chance of selling pure electric SUVs and trucks. The Outlander PHEV would suit the US quite well, and if brought to the US, could boost Mitsubishi's market share quite noticeably. Besides, the end-goal is to minimize the ICE and get ourselves off of oil.

Yes, there is sense to have American-made products, but it's not as hostile to Japan as it is China. It wouldn't surprise me if there were more Japanese cars on our roads than American cars.

There isn't a general hatred (car reviewers at large and oil companies excepted) against electric vehicles. There is a lot of misleading and flat-out bad information out there, though. Of all the places I've taken my i-MiEV and the people I've talked to, only a couple (2 or 3) have expressed a thorough dislike of the electric drivetrain. My most notable experience was a guy I had drooling over a Tesla Roadster. I had him going a while that it does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and other specs. Then he asked me what it had under the hood. I told him it was electric. Just like flipping a switch, he went off on a rant and walked away. He must have thought it was a Lotus or something. Other than that, genuine interest in my little EV. I've even had a few offers from people wanting to buy mine. Many people thought either electric cars weren't around or that Mitsubishi didn't have an electric car (a nod to their wonderful advertising :roll: )

Brainwashing has been done pretty extensively where I live. We have the towns of Oil City to the North, Coal Center to the northeast, and natural gas in, around, and through it all. There's also this bad perception that we have so many cloudy days that solar would never work around here (Pittsburgh). If we had a total of 2 weeks worth of overcast/rainy days between May and October, we would be lucky. Even on the news last summer. We were in the middle of a borderline drought, had one day of rain, and the reporters said, "Hopefully we'll dry out tomorrow and have some sun again." It was ONE day of rain in 3 weeks with nothing but clear skies and 90+ degree weather. How much sun do you want?! :twisted: :twisted: My solar array net generated an excess of 16 kWh in October with a decent number of overcast days, and the array isn't even built up to full capacity.

Sorry for the rant that went quite off-topic, but it just shows how shortsighted and mal-informed the public can be.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

alohart
Posts: 377
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Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:51 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:In USA markets there are plenty of ICE SUV-s available and considering general hostility against Japanese cars and relatively low interest against EV-s and plugin hybrids in America it is wise to avoid this market.

I live in the U.S. half-time and Sweden half-time, own an i-MiEV in the U.S. and a Honda Insight hybrid in Sweden which we have driven around Europe since 2009. I can tell you without question that hybrids are much more popular in the U.S. than in Europe where diesels have been Europe's answer to higher fuel efficiency.

I don't know how plugin hybrid sales compare in the U.S. vs. Europe, but I still don't see many PHEV's in Europe, especially compared with diesels. Norway and the Netherlands are exceptions due to their PHEV purchase incentives, but in Sweden, I rarely see a PHEV.

As to your assertion of hostility toward Japanese cars in the U.S., that might still be true in areas around manufacturing plants for American vehicles, but it is not true in most of the rest of the U.S. where the Toyota Camry has been at or near the most popular car sold in the U.S. for many years. In recent years, Kia and Hyundai have become very popular.

I don't know why Mitsubishi decided to sell its Outlander PHEV in Europe before in North America. It might be that Mitsubishi knew that it could not meet the initial demand in the large U.S. market or that its dealer network in the U.S. is pretty weak. But I know its not because of perceived hostility of Americans toward Japanese cars or relatively low interest in PHEV's in the U.S., especially compared with Europe.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

olagon
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:23 pm

I've been waiting with cash in hand to buy the Outlander PHEV. Wish it were on sale in the U.S.! Because of the delays I am considering the Model X or a PHEV from Volvo which may be in the U.S. this year (http://www.pluginamerica.org/vehicles/v ... lug-hybrid).
2012 iMiev SE
Last two cars were both '95 biodiesel benz
Home & now car 100% PV powered since '09
Other car 2003 Forester...waiting to upgrade when Outlander PHEV is out :-)

PV1
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Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:20 pm

Don't forget about the new Toyota RAV4-EV.
"Bear" - 2012 Diamond White Pearl ES with QC - 2/21/2013
Solar-powered since 10/10/2013

"Koorz" - 2012 Cool Silver Metallic ES with QC - 1/5/2015

2017 Bolt EV LT in Orange with QC - 7/31/2017

Driving electric since 2-21-2013.

Vike
Posts: 400
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Mitsubishi stupidity

Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:37 am

PV1 wrote:Don't forget about the new Toyota RAV4-EV.
The RAV4-EV isn't new - it isn't even current, but based on the previous generation RAV4 (I assume they've had all the gliders warehoused somewhere for a couple of years to dribble onto the assembly line to meet their lame targets). It's a California-only compliance dodge, initially wildly overpriced, indifferently marketed, and probably both the least reliable Toyota AND least reliable EV you can buy - pretty much a rolling joke. So yes, DO forget about it.

Beyond all that, it's not really comparable to the Outlander P-HEV (the subject of this discussion). Unlike the OPHEV, the RAV4EV doesn't solve the range anxiety problem. It can go further than a LEAF, but not by much (EPA est. 103 mi. combined), and with NO quick-charge capability it is quite literally less roadtrip-worthy than our i-MiEVs w/CHAdeMO (and that's saying something). The OPHEV by contrast has a fantastic range extender, offering full performance from its ICE/RE when the batteries are exhausted (which is a lot better than you can say for a BMW i3), not to mention electric AWD. Mitsubishi figures it'll go 37 mi. on a charge and get about 44 mpg in hybrid mode; if the EPA numbers come in at 30 mi. and 40 mpg, it's going to be the first family-capacity vehicle that can realistically operate around town as an EV and cross-country as a hybrid. It would still be a game-changer today - but maybe not in another year or so, and certainly not if they slip the U.S. rollout yet again.
2012 Silver ES w/QuickCharge+DRL/foglights, Eaton Level 2 EVSE, since 9/9/2012

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