Advice needed: Buying used 2011 model on credit?

Hello i-Miev Owners,

I am writing to you from Norway. But I will write here as I do not speak the language. Hence the local forum is out.

I am considering to purchase an i-Miev. Financially I am limited to a used car. And 2011 models are sold second-hand from 100.000 NOK. And with the money I can borrow I can buy one for a maximum of 120.000 NOK. They have between 21.000 and 58.000 km in them. (For those who prefer miles: 13.049 - 36.040 mi) They also come with what is left of the warranty period of a total of 5 years.

The people here have 4 months of good weather and 6 months of winter. It can get 20 - 25 below in Celsius. (-4 - -13 F.) The geography is what it is: pine tree/rock/fjord/rock/pine tree/rock/rock/pine tree/rock. Not to sound negative though. What really bother me are these long tunnels with steeeeeeep ups stretching for a few kilometres. And the roads have their ups and downs too: not only in quality but literally.

These are the things I have to live with and now you get the picture.

So to buy this car I need a loan. I can go from 5 years up to 9 years. The letter has a ridiculous mothy payback rate. But I do not know if the car will last that long in these conditions and considering that I cannot know how it was used by the first owner. Can the lifetime of the battery be estimated somehow in these conditions? How far should I stretch the down payment in your opinion?

In addition I have absolutely no idea how to look for errors in such a car. I have only test driven electric cars. That is all my experience with electric cars and I cannot say I am a technical know-how. I have however, tried to search the forum here for some DIY, and easy, diagnostic methods but I have found none. I do know a place where they diagnose the battery of a Th!nk City for as “little” as 1.000 NOK but I cannot know if any car mechanics would even be in a reachable distance of the car I will purchase.

So any advice regarding these issues would be very much welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you in advance,

George

Hello George, I hear you on the terrain- I lived in Stavanger and Oslo for 5 years. I'd invest in the CanION app on an Android device with Bluetooth plus a compatible OBD adaptor, it gives better battery health data than any dealer has delivered. I'm very confident with the car in slippery and steep terrain, as it's torquey rear wheel drive, ASC, ABS and Traction Control are great, plus the regenerative braking is truly the Best In Class. My May 2012- built car has a great battery EVen after sitting on the lot for a year and then being driven very hard- will be over 17000 miles in the first year of use.
I've no idea what EV depreciation curves are like in Norway, but back in the USsA they're crazy steep since new cars and lease incentives keep getting more attractive, while the sheeple aren't getting a clue as fast as the early adopters are upgrading.
Speaking of upgrading, the diesel heater would be a worthwhile addition for Norway, and I 'd make sure to have personal L2 charging at home to take advantage of preheating without stressing the battery.

Hi George,

In terms of battery health a good test would be to drive the car slowly around town with very gentle acceleration say between 30 and 60 kph on flat terrain for about 20 km. Then do a full charge you should see over 120 km of range remaining. That would be at temps above 15 deg c. If you drive the car on the highway at 95 kph for 20 km then charge the range should be more like 100 km. to me that would be a normal battery with very capacity loss.

Canion can give you lots of info about the battery also but you need time to play with it.

Mostly I would say that you should be fine but you have to be realistic about how you want to use the car. In the cold you loose up to 40 % range for heating. Having an indoor garage will be better for the car and better for you. A diesel heater is a great idea. I'm installing one for next winter.

This car is not to great with big potholes. The wheels are small. Get used to driving around them.

With your terrain you have to think about what you want to do with the car. If you stay within its capabilities you will have no problems.

Don......

Comments above are sound.
I live in an area that is considered cold for Australia but mild by your standards, however I live in a very hilly area.
I usually budget on around 100km usable, but that is more like 60 if I have the heater cranking flat out...

And I second the potholes comment......my girlfriend also has an imiev and she has killed three tyres in five months on potholes and broken tarmac edges.
All in the same 500 m piece of road!
I have managed to avoid potholes, but I have had a $3,000 repair after hitting a kangaroo......

Hi Everyone,

First of all thank you for all the replies.

jray3:
Thank you for the heads up on the CanION app and the OBD. I have watched a video since then on how to set it up and install it – it is quite a long process though.

As for depreciation I have no idea. A new i-Miev can be bought for 168.000 NOK currently. The used ones I am looking at are as said above. (I wish I could fork out 48.000 NOK more and buy a new one…) But everyone wants to get the Leaf so I recon prices will fall further…

The diesel warmer is a very good idea. So far I have found them only in Th!nk-s and Buddy-es.

Don:
What you have written sounds a very sound advice. But how long does it take to get the car fully charged? Hours? I see it difficult to arrange a test drive and a follow-up after several hours when buying from a private person.

Unfortunately I have no access to a garage. I can get an outdoor parking space with a charging post. But I would have to drive 25 km to my workplace and back again. And it is okay to park the car at a charging station during the summer and walk to work but I do not want to do that in the winter obviously. Therefore, one charge would have to last through the day. And I would like to cruise around with it in my free time. So this is how I plan to use it.

And I am not planning on driving the Oslo-Bergen route with it. But even the road leading there has some “road” in it besides the potholes. And it is so narrow at places… Although “narrow” seems to be a general property of the roads here. Not too much space to avoid the potholes but I will just have to try then.

carnut1100:
Thank you for confirming the 40% drop in power with heating. And for confirming the pothole-issue too.

I wonder what the repair cost would be when hitting a reindeer. But in that case the question might be about survival and not repair.

- - - - - - -

If someone could comment on how many years is it best to take up the loan it would be greatly appreciated.

And thank you once again for everyone’s help so far,

George

carnut1100 said:

but I have had a $3,000 repair after hitting a kangaroo......

Click to expand...

I've wondered about big critters, whether reindeer or roo. In a direct hit, will they tend to roll up and over the car, or come thru the windshield? Was hoping that our roman nose might keep carnage out of the cabin by deflecting it upwards. In an old 'two-box' sedan design, if something gets above the hood- it's coming thru the glass too!

Back on topic, there might be a strategic consideration since you've only got about two years left on warranty. On the chance that the pack fails or some other repair that exceeds the vehicle's value arises after the warranty expires, there'd be an incentive to stretch the financing out long-term and let the worthless vehicle get repossessed, IF the vehicle is the only collateral. Of course, your credit would take a hit, but that's a twist on the strategic defaults that became rampant in the US housing market...

Otherwise, its just balancing the interest rate charged on the loan versus interest earned on your cash reserves, and not financing for a period longer than you plan on keeping the car.

Also, the diesel heater is a DIY upgrade, not supported by Mitsubishi or a dealer option. Details are on the following thread:
http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1248

Good Luck,
Jay

Hey George,


Well you can do 2 things first ask the owner to charge fully for you and check the range remaining (RR). You'll get an idea of battery health right away. Then you can do a 20 km test run and ask him to recharge it. It should take one or two hours max. Then you could check it again. Like anything related to charging it will take some time.


As for what you will use the car for,
If you have a 50 km commute for work that's no problem at all in summer but in winter it may be nearing the limit depending on the temps. At -25 deg C and the car left outside all the time. It will be difficult to get it warm but preheating for 30 minutes while at home in the morning will help. There won't be much left over when you get home. You really need to charge it at work in the winter when it's very cold or put in a diesel heater for those temps. If the temps are not so cold then it's easier on the car and on you. You know the situation in your area best. You can always bundle up and sacrifice heat.

Comfort is more of a personal thing and it varies for person to person. I always get where I'm going in the winter but after awhile heat becomes an issue if it is cold for a long time.

Don.....

George

Your original questions says you are not very familiar about electric vehicles. There are five main components of EV that are not part of a regular ICE.

They are : Battery Pack
Battery Management System (BMS)
On-board charger
Motor Controller or Variable Speed Drive
Motor Gearbox

The motor gearbox is not of a big maintenance item as heavy industry has used these devices for over 50-70 years and the technology is well known.

The Motor Computerized Controllers are maybe 15-20 years of industrial use and have had their problem early in there implementation. Most of their issue have been resolved but there can be issues of semi-conductor failures. That said, it is still a solid state device and therefore will be much more reliable than any mechanical device.

The on-board charger has the same issues as the motor controller, however with much smaller amperage flowing used by this device, we should expect less failure modes.

The BMS are 22 small cards that are placed on each block of the battery pack. Although I would expect that it would be the less costly thing to replace, it would require labour cost to drop the battery for replacement.

The battery pack is the most expensive to replace. I am not sure what is offered in Europe as a warranty, but here is Canada Mitsubishi has given a 8 years, 160,000 km full replacement. They say that the pack will retain 80% of the charge after 8 years. This issue is still in debate as Li-ion technology used in automobiles are still relatively new and therefore less data is available in real world conditions . I have seen and read many reports that confirms this minimum 8 years life and could be as high as 15-20 years when managed well. That is to say, when temperature is kept below 35 degrees C. Which in your case should not be a problem.

Therefore, as for financing the vehicle, that would depend on your risk factor and if you want to risk replacement of a battery pack in say 160,000 km mark. I know many will say that battery prices are dropping and they are, but we also know that Mitsubishi uses a very specific battery used only for their vehicles. Meaning, I would expect them to charge a premium for battery replacement. I have not seen any third party battery suppliers as of yet and that will depend on how well the Li-ion of today last in the real world environment. Which as I said is an open question.

For me, I own a 2012 I-Miev and have not leased it and therefore plan to keep it a long time. This is because I see a higher risk in high gas prices (and I am saying doubling in the next five years) as my first concern. Although I have higher finance charge, I also have a stable fuel supply (electrons).

As in buying any car, it is a risk. And as for this vehicle, I can not say it is a bad risk no matter which way you want to finance it.

Dave