FiddlerJohn
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:51 pm
Location: Bowie, Maryland

288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and MPGe

Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Seeing the details of the EPA test helps me to understand what a great car the i is.
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/testing/dynamometer.htm

The City test is usually called the LA4 test: 126 MGPe
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/uddsdds.gif

Highway: 99 MGPe
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/hwfetdds.gif

That is the EPA test.

Now look at what you can do, if you have to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqSLNX3WlHY

* * * Range 137 miles *** . . . * * * 288 MPGe * * *

Wow! 219.5 kilometers on one charge is ~ 288 MPGe ! Wow!

220 kilometers = 137 miles
EPA Gallon=33.7 kWh
iMiEV has 16 kWH or 0.475 of a Gallon
137 miles / 0.475G = 288 MPGe WOW!
Last edited by FiddlerJohn on Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

mitchell
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:21 am

Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:18 am

137 miles per charge in an iMiev would be great!

JoeS
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Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:04 pm

FiddlerJohn, thanks for posting and I see there are some updates as well. What follows is a modification of a rant I published over a year ago...

The purpose of the EPA Monroney stickers is to give consumers some standardized idea of what it costs to drive a vehicle, considering only energy ("fuel"). To this end the EPA has spent a fortune designing models which attempt to simulate how a 'typical' consumer drives and how a vehicle behaves in those driving conditions.

The EPA, instead of recognizing that electric vehicles are a different animal whose metric is kWHr/100miles or miles/kWHr and simply using these units, decided to attempt 'equivalency' and get back to something everyone is used to: miles per gallon. They implemented this using the energy contained in a gallon of gasoline and converting it to kWHr, specifically, 33.7kWh/gallon. Sorry, but while technically correct, this metric shies away from the fundamental reason for using miles per gallon: COST.

Utilizing the same EPA standard drive cycle for both gasoline and electric vehicles and since cost is the motivation, I contend that there are only three variables which should be considered when comparing "fuel" consumption performance amongst vehicles using disparate energy sources: ENERGY QUANTITY, ENERGY COST, and DISTANCE, measured by gallons or litres from the pump and kilowatt-hours out of an EVSE, $/gallon or $/litre and $/KWHr for that "fuel", and miles or kilometers for distance driven. Although I recognize the various conversions amongst energy units, since the purpose of the EPA sticker is to compare "fuel" consumption COSTS, I contend that $$ paid by the consumer (and not energy content) is the most reasonable common denominator yielding an apples-to-apples comparison.

Upstream or downstream energy costs (be it electricity generation or liquid fuel production) and recovery benefits and all the associated social, political, production, transportation, tax-related, health-related, etc., costs and benefits, although important and worthy of separate discussion, I believe to be irrelevant when discussing out-of-pocket expenses for the "fuel" to drive a vehicle.

For standardization, I accept whatever drive cycle the EPA wants to put out there, recognizing that a hypermiler can very easily beat the current gasoline ratings and that judicious use of regen has a significant effect on extending an EVs range.

The iMiEV EPA sticker says 30KWHrs per hundred miles. I presume that is 30KWHr out of the EVSE (thus taking into account all the vehicle's subsystem's inefficiences), and that regeneration has been optimized. Although I personally think this number is high, for argument's sake, let's accept it.

I had written a bunch of examples to illustrate my point; however, it was easier to simply create a spreadsheet so you can choose your electricity cost and current gas prices to yield the equivalent "miles per gallon".

Image

Sorry, but whereas I understand how EPA used energy equivalency, I contend that $$ equivalency is the more valid metric as the whole idea is to compare COST. I can understand why they didn't go this way - simply because of the ever-changing cost of both gasoline and electricity.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

FiddlerJohn
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:51 pm
Location: Bowie, Maryland

Mitsubishi iMiEV Electric Vehicle MPG Equivalence

Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:00 pm

JoeS wrote:... I contend that $$ paid by the consumer (and not energy content) is the most reasonable common denominator yielding an apples-to-apples comparison....

http://www.katiekat.net/Vehicles/Mitsi/iMiEVMPG.pdf
...
    $ / g $3.50 $3.60 $3.70 $3.80 $3.90 $4.00
    $/kWh
    $0.10 116.7 120.0 123.3 126.7 130.0 133.3 ...
    $0.11 106.1 109.1 112.1 115.2 118.2 121.2 ...
    $0.12 097.2 100.0 102.8 105.6 108.3 111.1 ...
    ...
    $0.26 044.9 046.2 047.4 048.7 050.0 051.3 ...
    ...
    $0.33 035.4 036.4 037.4 038.4 039.4 040.4 ...

... Left column denotes electricity cost in $/KWh
Top row denotes gasoline cost in $/gallon
Resulting data represents equivalent Miles Per Gallon
...I contend that $$ equivalency is the more valid metric as the whole idea is to compare COST...

Wow! JoeS mentioned this before, but the chart drives the point home. "Follow the money."
In another post I say for $0.11 for a kWh, and the EPA Gallon of Gas = 33.7 kWh which is a "Gallon of Electricity."

$0.11/kWh x 33.7 kWh = $3.70 for a "Gallon of Electricity"

On the JoeS chart the $0.11/kWh row intersects the $3.70 column at 112 MPG (the EPA MPGe that most of us should beat.)
Now if gas goes up to $4/g, the 112 MPGe iMiEV now gets the a MPG$ equivalent of 121 MPG$ just because the 'i' is using a cheaper fuel.

Alternatively the cost of electricity would have the TRIPLE to $0.33/kWh (keeping gas at $3.70) for the 'i' to break even with a 37.4 MPG gas car.

Energy wise the iMiEV is still 112 MPGe for the entire chart. The JoseS chart allows us to quantify changes in fuel cost using a MPG$ comparison.

The iChart gives Range as a function of Speed and Bars. The JoeS chart gives the equivalent MPG (I call MPG$) allowing us to compare an EV to a gas car at different fuel cost.

Thanks to JoeS for making me think in a new dimension.
Last edited by FiddlerJohn on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

JoeS
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Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:26 am

FiddlerJohn, great choice of name for fuel COST equivalency: MPG$
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

FiddlerJohn
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:51 pm
Location: Bowie, Maryland

EPA uses a Five Year $ Equivalency on the Sticker

Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:47 am

JoeS wrote:... EPA used energy equivalency, I contend that $$ equivalency is the more valid metric...


JoeS is right. The EPA uses an energy equivalency with it's MPGe, but on the top right of the label, the EPA attempts a type of $ equivalency with "You SAVE $9850 in fuel cost in five years compared to the average new vehicle." The EPA $ equivalency uses a fixed $/kWh and MPG to compare to "a standard" car. The MPG$ JoeS chart allows us to vary the $/kWh, $/Gallon and MPG to make cost and MPG comparisons between all cars.

Check out this link the the EPA window Sticker on this iMiEV:
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=epa+sticker+miev&start=317&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=884&bih=581&tbm=isch&tbnid=RKt1IRH-saSQ0M:&imgrefurl=http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/imiev_testdrive/index.html&docid=UdBMTb4JKbGLJM&imgurl=http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/imiev_testdrive/imiev_sticker_lg.jpg&w=1600&h=1200&ei=aCdFT4KyCNLhggfzooCYBA&zoom=1&chk=sbg&iact=hc&vpx=480&vpy=243&dur=171&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=137&ty=215&sig=113541335613459618031&page=21&tbnh=129&tbnw=186&ndsp=16&ved=0CJgDEK0DMF447QE


This link shows a different new EPA label with "Use Your Gas Prices & Annual Miles" & "Energy Consumption in kWh/100 miles."
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=epa+sticker+miev&start=574&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=884&bih=581&tbm=isch&tbnid=GquLc_igG2BzGM:&imgrefurl=http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/10/ask-the-best-and-brightest-what-is-obamas-130-mpg-battery/&docid=Nu8I7qDut7ooVM&imgurl=http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/10/Picture-554.png&w=472&h=272&ei=MCNFT7XfB43DsQKfooTDDw&zoom=1&chk=sbg&iact=hc&vpx=109&vpy=4&dur=4558&hovh=170&hovw=296&tx=180&ty=88&sig=113541335613459618031&page=37&tbnh=111&tbnw=193&ndsp=16&ved=0CLELEK0DMNECOO0B

Here is the new EPA site for MPG$ type comparisons, but I don't understand it:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2001customizef.jsp

JoeS
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Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 am

I first published my rant on this forum back in February regarding MPG$ equivalency being the 'proper' way to compare "miles per gallon" between gasoline vehicles and electric vehicles, using $$$ as the common denominator.

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=923#p923

Well, based upon my actual consumption, I've updated the spreadsheet. It shows that, for example, with our current gasoline price of $4.20/gal and my off-peak electricity rate of nine cents/kWh (if I were to pay for my electricity), this would yield an effective 198.4mpg for my little iMiEV. :!: Yes, we've found the Silver Bullet for high gas prices (thanks for the concept, psyflyjohn).

Image
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:13 pm

Hmm, with my high Honolulu electricity costs (~30¢/kWh), even with Honolulu's high gasoline prices (~$4.15/gal. today), this spreadsheet indicates that the fuel for my Honda Insight would cost less than that for the i that I plan to buy :o Our condo association buys electricity in bulk for which each resident pays his share, so there's no E.V. rate available.

Fortunately, I don't have to make a choice because our Insight is saving us lots of gasoline money in Sweden where it will stay when we buy the i in Honolulu :D

The point I'm trying to make is that there are some locations where fuel for the most efficient non-EV cars can cost less than that for an i which sort of surprises me.
Last edited by alohart on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

NeilBlanchard
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Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Contact: Website

Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:31 am

You need to add regular maintenance to your spreadsheet, I think? This adds about 25% to a typical ICE car.
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

Don
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Re: 288 MPG Best Case is More Than Twice the EPA Range and M

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:59 am

If you were using MPG$, then yes, I suppose maintenance cost should probably be in there, but then so should the cost of gasoline, shouldn't it? How does the driver in Saudi Arabia who pays 30 cents a gallon to fill up his ICE factor in here?

The MPG figure for ICE cars is a way to compare the actual quantity of fuel each car burns, irrespective of price, which is why it's a good measure - We're comparing apples to apples because adding in variable costs in any way upsets the applecart for a meaningful comparison between one car and another so cost cannot be a factor if you want your number to mean anything

When you look at Joe's MPG$ for EV's, the same thing horribly skews your comparisons, making them meaningless. What someone pays shouldn't throw off the number if you intend to use it for a meaningful comparison. Joe pays 6 cents for his energy and gets nearly 200 MPG$ while alohart who drives the same car pays 30 cents for his, so his number is only 1/5th of Joe's for the same miles driven - If those numbers were on the window sticker, Joe's car will be selling like hotcakes, while alohart's car will become a lot lizard after a few months . . . . who wants to buy the car that costs 5X as much to operate than the other one does?

The only way to get a number than means ANYTHING is to get cost completely out of the equation - Joes' car is not really 5 times as 'fuel efficient' as aloharts is . . . . unless you use something like MPG$ to completely throw off the results of your energy comsumption. My ICE is much more 'cost efficient' than the same car someone is driving in California because they are paying $4.20 to fill it up and I'm only paying $3.40

So . . . . if we wanted to make a meaningful comparison of sorts between EV's and ICE powered vehicles, what's the only way this could be done? We would have to peg the energy in a gallon of gasoline to some number of kilowatt hours of electricity irrespective of the cost of either. You may not be happy with the number thay came up with when they did this, but it is the only way you can get an 'apples to apples' comparison where neither the cost of your electricity or the cost of their gasoline can upset the comparison, otherwise you're not comparing anything

Joe wants to use his 6 cents per Kwh to make his EV look better in the comparison because his gas is $4.20 a gallon . . . . and the ICE numbers don't factor that in at all - How does his MPG$ give us any meaningful comparison between his EV and my ICE? It doesn't

MPGe was designed (just like many other things about this car) to give a comparison between driving an EV and driving an ICE powered car, and it does a pretty good job of that, IMO

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, Raspberry Metallic
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon

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