RobbW
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Elgin, IL

EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:09 am

So, over in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1732) Don posted information about the published EPA estimates for our i-MiEVs:

City: 126 MPGe / Highway: 99 MPGe = Average: 112 MPGe

Also, the calculation for the EPA's estimated "real world" range:

55% City / 45% Highway = 62 mile range
EPA LA4 (mostly stop & go city driving) = 98 mile range

Here are two questions I have regarding this data:

1. If the EPA is going to calculate the "real world" range of 62 miles based on a 55 city/45 highway split, shouldn't they use the same split to calculate the average MPGe instead of just using the mean average? Therefore, the "real world" average MPGe should be: (55% * 126 MPGe) + (45% * 99 MPGe) = 113.85 Avg. MPGe.

2. I just got out of a capital planning budget meeting at work, and my accountant brain is dazed and confused with numbers and calculations at the moment. What variable am I missing in calculating the EPA's "real world" range of 62 miles based on 55% city / 45% highway? I assume it must have something to do with the battery capacity, right? I want to try and figure out my anticipated "real world" range if my daily commute is roughly 80% city stop & go driving and 20% highway driving.
Clear Skies,
Robb

EV: 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV SE, Raspberry Metallic, Premium Package - Purchased 07/11/13
PHEV: 2017 Chrysler Pacifica eHybrid, Bright White, Platinum Package - Purchased 05/01/17

acensor
Posts: 365
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:17 pm
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:28 pm

Hi Robb,

EPAs way of estimating MPG equivalence is based on some estimates of energy consumed.
With some questionable assumptions.

If I calculate the equivalence based on dollars consumed I come out with about 330MPG.
If I amortize into my cost per mile the long term battery replacement costs (being forced to make some rather uncertain middle of the road assumptions about battery life and future replacement cost) I come out with about 90 MPG.

As for trying to pre calculate YOUR range from the stated mitsu claimed or EPA ranges, iMO it's at best an interesting exercise and at worst a fool's errand ;)

Range varies SO widely base on terrain , speed, leadfootedness, tire pressure, use of heater or not, etc.
You might get as much as 130 miles per charge or as little as, say, 45 (like if you get out on the interstate and haul ass at 80 mph running the heater full blast.)

Next to actually testing your range under your driving conditions, IMO you'd do best describing them (speed, hills, route, etc) here and asking folks here to give your their best guesses.

You didn't say you driving speed and hills or lack of hills.
But if if had to make a wild guess fro what you wrote I'd say if you're not running heater or much AC and not a lead foot,, probably safe to say you can expect 70 to 80 mile range.
Alex
{this message posted with 100% post consumer recycled electrons}
SE 2012 white with blue trim, powered by PV (~65%)
2015 Subaru Forester CVT
Two Trek street/trail bicycles optimized for mild around town use

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3816
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:43 pm

RobbW, methinks you're inordinately-obsessed with the EPA numbers. To put the EPA ratings in perspective, let me simply excerpt from one of my posts last year:

From -

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/26/2012-mitsubishi-i-first-drive-review/

"How does that work? Well, the EPA measures electric vehicles using a two-cycle (city/highway) test and then subtracts 30 percent from these numbers to approximate "real world" driving. 70 percent of the i's city range (98 miles) is 69 miles. 70 percent of the car's highway range (78 miles) is 55 miles. In calculating a combined (city/highway) driving range, the EPA weighs the formula slightly more in the favor of the city range (55 percent) versus the highway range (45 percent), thus: (98 miles at 55 percent) + (78 miles at 45 percent) x 70 percent = 62 miles. That may make some sort of regulatory sense, but there should no longer be any doubt that your mileage may vary when it comes to EV range estimates."

In other words, they go through all this "scientific" mumbo-jumbo and then arbitrarily knock off 30%.

As Don likes to say, your mileage, within reason, is whatever you need it to be. We have wonderful control over how far we can go by simply altering our driving style and use of climate controls - variations of 50% easily achievable readily invalidate any nit-picking of the EPA numbers. As you become comfortable with your iMiEV, range simply becomes a non-issue in everyday life.

Now, to your two points:

1. Yeah, you'd think so. Not worth picking nits, IMO.

2. Why not take a test trip yourself, recording everything along the way? I did that with a voice recorder right after I bought my iMiEV and quickly satisfied myself as to its practical limits (http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=960#p960). For myself, I never ever want to go below two bars, and I only fully charge the car when I have a really long trip.

Inasmuch as we've all had range concerns when we first bought our iMiEVs, you might want to go back and review the various threads on this topic in this subforum.

Now, a question for you: since you charge fully every night, what are the typical RR readings you get in the morning before starting off? Hint: if it's less than 75 miles, you may wish to hone your hypermiling skills. ;)
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

RobbW
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Elgin, IL

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:02 pm

JoeS wrote:RobbW, methinks you're inordinately-obsessed with the EPA numbers.

Yes, my wife also gets annoyed with how anal/OCD I become with new hobbies/toys!

On average (whatever that is), I usually range between 75-81 on the RR in the morning before I head out. I'm sure that's on the low side for most of y'all on here. However, I blame it on my drive home in the evenings. On my way in to work in the mornings and throughout the day, I usually baby my Meepster to ensure I have plenty of range left at the end of the day. On my drive home after work, when I know I have nothing to worry about range-wise, I let loose a bit and don't restrain my driving habits as much as I probably should.

With that, I know there is the thread on this board about the RR record (which is 107 now, I believe). What is the record for how far anyone has actually DRIVEN on one charge rather than how much range the meter displays after charging?
Clear Skies,
Robb

EV: 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV SE, Raspberry Metallic, Premium Package - Purchased 07/11/13
PHEV: 2017 Chrysler Pacifica eHybrid, Bright White, Platinum Package - Purchased 05/01/17

Don
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Location: Biloxi MS

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:53 pm

98 or 99 miles has been reported here for a trip on relatively level ground in stop and go city traffic

As with the RR numbers after a recharge, you could get some much larger numbers in the correct scenario - speed kept to 15 or 20 mph and more downhill travel than uphill, so you have to take any reported numbers with a grain of salt

But . . . . 90 to 100 miles is do-able if you really tried - You would need to religiously keep the power meter needle at the 'C' in Eco or lower 99% of the time and hyper-mile the heck out of your trip

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, Raspberry Metallic
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon

RobbW
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Elgin, IL

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:01 pm

Don wrote:You would need to religiously keep the power meter needle at the 'C' in Eco or lower 99% of the time and hyper-mile the heck out of your trip

Um, yeah... doesn't sound too practical for me!
Clear Skies,
Robb

EV: 2012 Mitsubishi i-MiEV SE, Raspberry Metallic, Premium Package - Purchased 07/11/13
PHEV: 2017 Chrysler Pacifica eHybrid, Bright White, Platinum Package - Purchased 05/01/17

Barbagris
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:34 am
Location: Bilbao, Spain

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:49 am

RobbW wrote:...On average (whatever that is), I usually range between 75-81 on the RR in the morning before I head out. I'm sure that's on the low side for most of y'all on here...


Don't worry.

I usually see 86-93 each morning.

But kilometers, not miles. In miles, near 54-58.

Don wrote:But . . . . 90 to 100 miles is do-able if you really tried - You would need to religiously keep the power meter needle at the 'C' in Eco or lower 99% of the time and hyper-mile the heck out of your trip


Each day I push the needle to full power. Several times.

When I go more relaxed roads easily get results 50% longer.

Different needs, different results.
...learning...

JoeS
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:42 am

RobbW wrote:...What is the record for how far anyone has actually DRIVEN on one charge rather than how much range the meter displays after charging?
136.4miles (219.5km) on video or 112.1miles (180.4km) by one of our Forum members, take your pick. We have a thread for that, and here's the latest entry: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=11072#p11072
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3816
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: EPA "Real World" Range

Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:00 am

More fuel onto the fire: http://business.time.com/2013/08/19/your-mileage-may-vary-truer-than-ever-with-todays-hybrid-cars/

I'm disappointed that this article only talked about hybrids and did not include EVs and apologies as it's a little OT. At least lead-footedness is getting some attention. The proper use of regeneration can significantly affect the EPA ratings and I haven't seen this specifically addressed. Aerodynamics also seems to be only taken into account mathematically and not empirically.

Funny thing is, the iMiEV's all-round EPA range rating of 62 miles (100km) is not a bad starting point for the uninitiated typically lead-footin' American driver.
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

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