Mart
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:45 pm
Location: Midtown, Jackson, Mississippi

Re: Anyone thinking of purchasing the new/improved 2014's?

Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:24 pm

That's one of the problems of using MPGe, is that it's based on the EPA equivalent of 33.7 kWh / U.S. gallon of regular (87 octane) gasoline. Most people are more concerned with a cost per gallon equivalent which changes daily. FWIW, Europe and the US also have different methods for determining octane. People think in terms of MPG rather than GPM. People think in terms of "It costs $x to fill my tank." People will ask you, "What's the range on your electric car?". They can't answer, "What's the range of your gasoline powered car?". Almost no one does a cost per mile calculation. You almost have to get their MPG and tell them, "It costs you $x to travel 100 miles, and it only costs me $y to go that far. Of course, I don't have any oil changes either."

Just got back from the big box orange store buying a Philips LED to replace the old CFL in the kitchen ceiling fixture. I ended up helping a couple buy an LED. They don't think in terms of lumens, CRI, or degrees K, that is, light quality. They think in terms of energy usage as being equal to amount of light: 65 watts in the can light, 100 watts in the ceiling fixture. I think people should have different information and mindsets to make informed decisions. Most people just need to know they can get in the car and go where they want, or flip the switch and have ample light that isn't too harsh.
Last edited by Mart on Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3843
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Anyone thinking of purchasing the new/improved 2014's?

Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:35 pm

How does one deal with clueless innumerates? Reminds me of an inane conversation I once had where I was touting the 80mpg my Insight regularly gets on the highway, to which the F250 owner responded proudly that, that's nothing, he gets over 1000mies in his customized truck! :?

I really wish DOE had not started the artificial MPGe metric and instead simply adopted kWh. On this forum, we had this discussion a couple of years ago about MPG equivalence where I utilized $$ as the common denominator. Pick your electricity cost and pick your gasoline cost and end up with MPG$
Using EPA Monroney sticker numbers: http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=923#p923
which I subsequently updated using measured data http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3710#p3710

OMG, off topic again :cry:
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2956
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Anyone thinking of purchasing the new/improved 2014's?

Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:09 pm

Many people ask me how much it costs to drive our car. I usually reply the electricity costs about two and a half cents per mile

That usually elicts a puzzled look, so I offer the comparison that if their 30 mpg car is burning $3 gas, they are spending ten cents per mile . . . . not counting oil changes and maintenance which I don't have. You almost always get an "I understood" look from that comparison. Then, I offer that if they're driving a 15 mpg pick-up, the cost is twenty cents per mile and if gas costs them more than $3 their costs are proportionally higher

This usually results in a "Wow!" . . . . or something similar. Few, if any realize how little energy an EV uses and how little it costs

If the discussion goes any further, I point out the real problem with burning gasoline for transportation is that only about 20% of the energy you pay for is actually used to move the car - Most of the rest goes up in wasted heat

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, Raspberry Metallic
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
2014 Ford Transit Connect XLT SWB wagon

fjpod
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am
Location: NYC

Re: Anyone thinking of purchasing the new/improved 2014's?

Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:16 pm

One problem is...electricity here in NYC is about 26 cents per kwh in normal months. I haven't checked my mid-winter bills yet, but they say our rates are up about another 15-20% due to rising prices of natural gas used to generate electricity. Combine that with using heat in stop and go traffic and my costs begin to approach that of a 25 mpg ICE. And my realistic range using minimal heat drops to just under 50 miles.

...the price we pay for being early adopters.

JoeS
Site Moderator
Posts: 3843
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Cost to drive a car

Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:39 pm

fjpod, 26cents/kWh is awful as a normal rate! Do you have any time-of-use metering or EV-rate options and are you subject to tiered rates?

BTW, y'all may have noticed that I moved a number of our posts over to here - a little more in line with our discussion ;)
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

olagon
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 5:54 pm

Re: Cost to drive a car

Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:40 am

We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.
2012 iMiev SE
Last two cars were both '95 biodiesel benz
Home & now car 100% PV powered since '09
Other car 2003 Forester...waiting to upgrade when Outlander PHEV is out :-)

fjpod
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am
Location: NYC

Re: Cost to drive a car

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:33 am

JoeS wrote:fjpod, 26cents/kWh is awful as a normal rate! Do you have any time-of-use metering or EV-rate options and are you subject to tiered rates?

BTW, y'all may have noticed that I moved a number of our posts over to here - a little more in line with our discussion ;)

I inquired about that, and I was told No by a ConEdison spokesperson. He said something like, "Why should all the other rate payers subsidize your driving".

The only time of use plan available in NYC is one in which they lower your night rate, BUT, they increase your day rate...so if you cannot shift a significant part of your normal daily usage to nighttime, you can actually pay more. In my analysis, it would have cost me more to go on a time of use plan. What am I gonna do, turn off the heat, A/C and refrigerator in my house during the day?

NYC is not seriously addressing the issue of EV driving. Our previous mayor (Bloomberg) was quoted somewhere as saying that they were not looking to make it less expensive for new EV drivers because afterall, the early adopters can readily afford it. So...no special rates, no public access to EV charging, no tax breaks, etc. All we are getting away with, for the moment, is not paying gasoline taxes...but I guess I am paying a bit more Utility tax.

fjpod
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:31 am
Location: NYC

Re: Cost to drive a car

Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:34 am

olagon wrote:We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.

somebody's always got it worse...but look at all that sunshine you guys have.

Mart
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:45 pm
Location: Midtown, Jackson, Mississippi

Re: Cost to drive a car

Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:53 am

fjpod wrote:
olagon wrote:We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.

somebody's always got it worse...but look at all that sunshine you guys have.


Yet HECO is trying to limit solar pv installations.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2013122533 ... ption.html

alohart
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:15 am
Location: Honolulu, HI, and Uppsala, Sweden

Re: Cost to drive a car

Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:04 pm

olagon wrote:We pay between 35 cents to 50 cents a kWh in Hawaii for residential power. No time of use. Difference in pricing is based on the island that you live on.

Hawaiian Electric Company, which supplies electricity for the most populous island by far, Oahu, does offer time-of-use (TOU) rates for entire residences or for separately-metered EV charging circuits. In both cases, the peak rate is higher than the standard rate, so if one cannot easily move electricity usage to non-peak hours, the total bill would be higher than with the standard rate. But for EV charging, in many cases, charging during non-peak hours (e.g., during the night) would be the usual situation, so the EV TOU rate would save about 6¢/kWh over the standard rate. That reduces the high cost of Hawaii electricity somewhat, but the cost/distance for my i-MiEV is still higher than that for my very fuel-efficient Honda Insight hybrid when only fuel costs are considered.

I have been trying since last July to get a building permit that would allow me to install a separate metered circuit to charge my i-MiEV in my condo parking space under the EV TOU rate, but the very political, who-you-know-trumps-all Honolulu building department has so far found reason after reason to deny my building permit. I shudder to think what my electrical contractor will charge me for this installation considering how much time he has had to spend attempting to get a building permit. The cost of the charging station including installation needs to be considered when figuring the cost of driving an EV, especially when one resides where parking is not adjacent to one's home (e.g., in an apartment or condo complex).
Aloha,
Art
Honolulu: 2014 BMW i3 BEV (formerly 2012 i-MiEV SE)
Uppsala, Sweden: 2000 Honda Insight

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