ndm
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:24 pm

Well, I finally have time to post on this subject, I've installed a webasto thermo top c diesel, I wish I was a little more proficient at technical writing but in a nutshell it was quite easy and took a day, I located my heater behind the front bumper on the metal plate in front of the radiator, I ran the coolant lines to the factory circulation pump (out from the pump in to the heater and out from the heater to the electric heater) I've ran the switch with a relay tied to the blower fan so that once the key is off so is the heater, by keeping the factory heater inline I can still preheat in the garage without dying, the car is warm when I get in and the webasto takes over once I'm on the road, my vent temperatures went from 110f with the electric heater on high to 160f with the diesel heater idling, my drive is 45 mins and 50 km with everything from highway to hilly back roads , as you know this drive in the winter with -25 c results in very low battery and I'm only allowed to charge at work on level 1 (so even with a level 1 at 12amps I just barely make it home) my return drive home was living in constant fear of the turtle! Now having lived with the webasto for a while and close to -30 c temps I can honestly say that this is the best mod other than a range extender I could possibly have done!I sometimes had to wait at the bus stop for my kids (20 mins!) and sat there freezing with frosted windows, now I can just run the electric while waiting because of the extra bars. I wish I could have taken pics during the install but it was a cold and slushy Saturday and my fingers didn't want to be there!
Highlights and placements include
#1- webasto mounted in front of the rad
#2- fuel tank (old lawn mower gas tank) mounted in front of the battery
#3- fuel pump on the bracket behind the coolant reservoir
#4- wiring ran through the firewall beside the brake booster keeping a majority of the wires inside the car
#5- switch mounted in the spare hole beside the USB , tied into the fan with a relay
#6- uses less than a liter of fuel for 1-1/2 hours drive time
#7- can be run on biodiesel/alt fuels
#8- having the factory heater still in place I always use the preheat and only switch on the webasto when the temps drop below -10c
#9- I'm now arriving at work with close to "summer" range remaining, a typical difference of five more bars remaining at the end of the day, in case I have to run errands

JoeS
Site Moderator
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:47 am
Location: Silicon Valley, California

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:51 pm

ndm, thank you very much for your description, with a solution that does not require battery relocation and also utilizes the car's existing electrical system for preheating. Certainly a worthy solution for the conditions you live in (totally alien to me) and I admire your tenacity in making it work. Using biodiesel is at least a token gesture in line with our emissions-free vehicle. :mrgreen:

Question: have you insulated the various coolant pipelines and had you added insulation elsewhere in the car?
EVs: 2 Wht/Blu SE Prem., '13 Tesla MS85, 3 156v CorbinSparrows (2 Li-ion), 24v EcoScoot(LiFePO4)
EV Conv: 156v '86 Ram PU, 144v '65 Saab 96
Hybrids: 48v1kW bike
ICE: '88 Isuzu Trooper. Mothballed: '67 Saab (orig.owner), '76 MBZ L206D RHD RV

ndm
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:30 am

Imust admit I was feeling guilty about doing a fossil fuels "upgrade " but yes I had tried all the other tricks such as insulation on all the coolant lines and heater, I even used an inverter and ceramic heater setup but the amount of battery necessary to go my distance was heavy and dangerous (think four lead acid deep cycle as projectiles) the most successful heat device was simply four ikea candles in a clay pot with another clay pot on top, but still not enough to make it tolerable, I finally decided to go ahead with the webasto after using my ICE F150 a few times, each day I used the truck I was using about 13 liters

ndm
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:59 am

I know it sounds like I am convincing myself but it seems to have paid off in the fact that my wife now takes the car on errands (she won't drive it in the cold otherwise) :-/ with a round trip of 50km to the closest major city she's already eliminated five trips in her corolla, plus she's much happier taking the mitsubishi in shopping center parking lots, she loves the car but hates the cold more, and let's face it the electric heater is just plain inadequate for the temperature range we live with!

Don
Site Moderator
Posts: 2879
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 3:55 pm
Location: Biloxi MS

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:26 pm

You don't have to 'sell' me - Your 110F/160F temperature differential pretty much tells the whole story . . . . and that was with the electric heat on MAX and the Diesel heater idling

I just need to convince myself that I'd use it often enough to make it a worthy project living down here in the south - But then if future winters are going to be anything like the one we're experiencing now, it's a no-brainer. If we get a group buy going for the $550 Chinese imports, I may well buy one

Burning fuel to make heat also wouldn't bother me at all - When the cold forces you into a gas burner, you're burning so much fuel you gotta vent 90% of the excess heat to the atmosphere via the radiator on the car. At least driving an EV with a fuel burning heater, you're making use of most of the heat you're generating

Don
2012 iMiEV SE Premium, White
2012 iMiEV SE, White
2017 Chevy Volt Premier
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1979 Honda CBX six into six

DonDakin
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm
Location: Montreal Quebec.....

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:58 pm

Hey ndm,

Thanks for the post on the heater. I firmly believe in it and I'm planning one but for next winter. My commute is much smaller so I'm fine with the car as is. I would like to add the heater for longer trips in the winter.

When the weather permits please post a few pics.

One little question. Do you find that the electric heater uses more power with the webasto in place ? I mean the webasto is a heat exchanger that is outside in the cold. I was wondering if it made the electric heat more inefficient ?

Don.....

ndm
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:46 pm

The beauty of having the webasto is that once it's fired up it makes enough heat to completely eliminate any need for electric heat, I usually turn the heater control to centre (green dot) this saves me enough battery to make it to work, charge during the day and make it home again without dropping below 3-4 bars, I also direct some of the heat to the battery pack, I can turn off the webasto and switch back to electric once I feel that there is enough charge remaining to complete my drive, it saves the range and it makes very good heat, so far I have been getting about 650 kms heating on less than 5L diesel, next step is to find a source for waste veggie oil!

DonDakin
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm
Location: Montreal Quebec.....

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:23 pm

I'm glad to hear that the heater works well. I am looking forward to installing one.

I am more wondering if adding the heater to the loop affects using the electric heater only in terms of the amount of power it draws to produce the same amount of heat in the cabin. It may be a moot point because if it's cold you can always use the gas heater but I was just wondering if you noticed it took more electricity to operate the electric heating only.

I don't know if you use canion but I suppose that might give a clue. Perhaps this is not noticeable.

Don....

ndm
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:06 am

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:55 am

The electric heater seems the same as it always has, no difference in draw when it's the only source of heat, I really don't need the webasto above -5c, I use the webasto for the first ten minutes then spare the dinosaurs and go electric for the rest, I have canion on my phone but need to get the bluetooth interface, if anyone has suggestions where to get one in Canada I'm all ears

DonDakin
Posts: 387
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm
Location: Montreal Quebec.....

Re: Upgrading the heating system to bioethanol or Diesel fue

Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:53 am

Hi ndm,

Thanks for the info. I guess it's all about where you drive and the range you need and weather and charging, the usual stuff. The parking heater is another tool to help you manage the trips you have to do in the cold.

I'm in Montreal and I ordered my canion adapter from here:

http://batman.homelinux.com/blog/stn117 ... i-adapter/

Came in about a week and cost about $125 USD all in. It's expensive if you compare it to the cheapest adapters you can find on the internet. But if you consider that it works with canion and you get great data and logging I think it is totally worth it. It's really a great tool.

Cheers

Don......

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