benswing
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:35 pm
Location: Montclair, NJ

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:46 am

In NJ, our power is 50% Nuclear, 30%Natural Gas, 11% coal & 9% other including solar, hydroelectric & waste-to-energy. Electric motors are far more efficient than ICE powered motors which is why driving electric causes less environmental damage.

There is not a critical mass of EV's yet to be concerned about the effect of lost revenue for road maintenance, but some legislators are trying to add an EV tax to compensate for that.
Driving Electric since 2007: Vectrix VX1 - 2007-2010, Zero S ZF9 - 2012-Present, Mitsubishi iMIEV - 2013 - 2015

Don
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Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:43 am

Even if the facts were to prove that EV's and ICE's used roughly equivalent 'power' and had about the same carbon footprint (and I don't believe for a second that they do) we should still favor EV's because of their efficiency. About 15% to 20% of the energy in each gallon of gasoline is used to move an ICE powered car - The rest is wasted in one form or another. Most of it is wasted as heat which the climate certainly doesn't need, but the waste continues when people preheat their ICE's in the winter, they waste energy in stop and go traffic, they waste energy sitting at stoplights . . . . heck, they even waste energy keeping the A/C running to keep the dog comfortable in the car while they are shopping

Whatever method we choose to power personal transport vehicles, we should be looking for something, anything which doesn't produce such a tremendous amount of WASTE!!

Don
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MLucas
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:52 am
Location: Niagara on the Lake, Ontario, Canada

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:31 am

Don wrote:Whatever method we choose to power personal transport vehicles, we should be looking for something, anything which doesn't produce such a tremendous amount of WASTE!!


That's why EVs make the most sense for motorized personal transportation. Can not get any more effficient than taking energy from it's generated source and pouring that directly into our battery banks. It democritizes the fuel supply by giving us a choice of how and where we get our power from; solar, wind, local power distributor, hamsters in a wheel, etc. This is where I feel that EVs are hated the most by money grubbers, they can't hijack us anymore for cash like they could when we bought gasoline.

My power here in the Niagara region comes from the Niagara River, my car is essentially powered by water.
http://www.utilityweek.co.uk/news/ontario-the-coal-free-province/927542

Like Dylan...I went electric.

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  • Mileage on June 29th, 2013 - 25,431 km / 15,802 miles
  • Mileage on June 29th, 2014 - 51,286 km / 32,616 miles

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carnut1100
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: Environmental Question

Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:42 pm

Best case ICE...15-20% of the energy ends up at the output shaft.
Average electric motor 90%+ ends up at the shaft.

Auto trans in a petrol car soaks up about 30% of that energy before it gets to the wheels.
Direct drive electric soaks up about 5%

ICE cars in stop start are running all the time.
Electric cars are running only while moving.

A big powerplant operating at a constant speed is muchore efficient than running an engine up and down.

Not all power comes from coal and the percentage is reducing


Yeah, I'm sure electric vehicles are SO much more polluting than ICE........

PV1
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Re: Environmental Question

Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:02 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:We are paying over $1 BILLION dollars PER DAY for foreign oil. If we drove EV's then we'd have plenty of money to repair our roads and infrastructure. And have plenty left over to improve our grid and railroad systems.

This is what I try to point out. Surprisingly, there haven't been many to point it out, but some have questioned road tax. We, as a country, use too much oil (and pretty much everything else) and people don't realize how much it costs. There are untold millions (probably billions) of dollars that come straight out of the Federal budget every year straight to a handful of oil companies' checking accounts. Take that money and redistribute it among infrastructure, education, social security, etc. IN ADDITION to what these programs are already getting.

Worried about my few cents on the gallon for road tax :roll:

ps. Saw a sign this morning advertising gas at $8.88. I was thinking, "That's more like it, true prices shining through." Too bad the sign was only in test mode.
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Kuuuurija
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:46 am

Re: Environmental Question

Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:36 pm

carnut1100 wrote:Best case ICE...15-20% of the energy ends up at the output shaft.
Average electric motor 90%+ ends up at the shaft.

Auto trans in a petrol car soaks up about 30% of that energy before it gets to the wheels.
Direct drive electric soaks up about 5%

ICE cars in stop start are running all the time.
Electric cars are running only while moving.

A big powerplant operating at a constant speed is muchore efficient than running an engine up and down.

Not all power comes from coal and the percentage is reducing


Yeah, I'm sure electric vehicles are SO much more polluting than ICE........


BS!
If to compare full chain (from fuel to motion or even from natural resources used to travelled miles per person), then electric cars have usually much worse efficency than ICE cars. So much energy and natural resources are wasted for electricity production and distribution.
Last edited by Kuuuurija on Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nsps
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:29 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Re: Environmental Question

Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:02 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:
carnut1100 wrote:Best case ICE...15-20% of the energy ends up at the output shaft.
Average electric motor 90%+ ends up at the shaft.

Auto trans in a petrol car soaks up about 30% of that energy before it gets to the wheels.
Direct drive electric soaks up about 5%

ICE cars in stop start are running all the time.
Electric cars are running only while moving.

A big powerplant operating at a constant speed is muchore efficient than running an engine up and down.

Not all power comes from coal and the percentage is reducing


Yeah, I'm sure electric vehicles are SO much more polluting than ICE........


[Expletive Deleted]
If to compare full chain (from fuel to motion or even from natural resources used to travelled miles per person), then electric cars have usually much worse efficency than ICE cars. So much energy and natural resources are wasted for electricity production and distribution.


What about the electricity consumed by fuel refineries? And the transportation of oil and gasoline, which must be transported to and from refineries and to gas stations? That's efficient?

Vike
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 pm
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico

Re: Environmental Question

Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:27 pm

Kuuuurija wrote:<expletive deleted>!

If to compare full chain (from fuel to motion or even from natural resources used to travelled miles per person), then electric cars have usually much worse efficency than ICE cars. So much energy and natural resources are wasted for electricity production and distribution.

BS yourself, my obviously cultured and highly literate friend. Well to wheel studies show that a 100 MPGe EV powered 100% from coal is no more polluting, net-net, than a 40 MPG ICE car. There are a few diesels and a handful of eco-tuned tall-geared gasoline models that can manage that on the highway, but as far as I know only hybrids break 40 MPG overall city+highway.

But then again, we're on massive regional grids, about zero of which are powered exclusively by coal. So as noted here already, there really are no EVs powered 100% from coal. So forget 40 MPG - your ICEV is probably going to have to crack 50 MPG to support an "I'm cleaner than an EV" case.

None of this is debatable, but I don't imagine debating is really your style. Seriously, dude - troll much?
2012 Silver ES w/QuickCharge+DRL/foglights, Eaton Level 2 EVSE, since 9/9/2012

RobertC
Posts: 292
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Location: Winter Garden, FL

Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:32 am

Vike wrote:
Kuuuurija wrote:Inflammatory comments.
Seriously, dude - troll much?
Have you read his other posts?
He's joined an electric vehicle forum (probably many forums) to berate electric vehicles.
We should stop feeding him.
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NeilBlanchard
Posts: 356
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Re: Environmental Question

Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:34 am

It takes more electricity to run a gasoline car, than it does to run an EV.

Long tailpipe argument is moot.
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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