Mitsubishi I-Miev Forum

Yeah, one doesn't have to look very deep into natural gas production and use to see that it is no less fraught with problems and environment issues equal to coal, nuclear, oil and all of it's refined products. It's being sold as a better alternative because there is money in it for someone.

IMO the only viable (long term) way to feed fuel cells is with electrolysis produced hydrogen from renewable electricity. A stationary fuel cell would not cause water usage issues since the almost pure water exhaust could easily be captured and put to use.

Like PV1 stated, all this stuff needs to be left where we found it period! Getting that done is like turning a super tanker by spraying one side of the bow with a squirt gun!

Fundamentals have to shift dramatically to save ourselves and our ecosystem. Economics has to learn to celebrate stagnate, sustainable success instead of constant growth. We need the global population to be 2 billion or less, going forward. The good of the people and the eco system has to be first and foremost in every corporate and political decision (globally). We are light years away from such a society. One that could survive and thrive in the long term. Fuel cells could be a very useful tool to such a society! In this one that we live in??

Aerowhatt

Judging by some of the scattered projects capturing methane being produced by bio-waste, landfills, sewage treatment, live stock manure, and other ancillary "natural" sources, do we even need to be drilling for gas? Fuel cells offer distributed generation of electricity that can be scaled to the output of the fuel source. In large part this doesn't keep the CO2 from the methane out of the atmosphere. Haziers solution has the promise of mitigating some of the CO2.

However, it does keep the methane from escaping to the atmosphere. At 28 times worse than CO2 for climate change effects, that is a step in the right direction. Especially since the methane being produced as a byproduct of human waste (livestock, landfills, agriculture waste, all emitting methane) is almost all just escaping into the atmosphere (unmetered even) currently. From the projects in place, or studied, it is economically viable, perhaps even economically superior to current practice. Certainly if one considers the externalized economic costs to us all (climate change) for just letting it escape. It is very economically advantageous.

Sometimes we get to be too "purist" (for lack of a better term) and don't give rather inefficient solutions their due consideration. At the same time hundreds of millions of us don't think anything of buying and using ICE transportation which is generally less than 20% efficient overall.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... ogen-plant

http://www.powermag.com/fuel-cells-star ... rintmode=1

Aerowhatt

As an update on the conversion of methane to hydrogen I read this rather interesting piece: https://www.techexplorist.com/four-stro ... xide/4911/

This could probably work in a home off of a gas network.

Phximiev wrote:As an update on the conversion of methane to hydrogen I read this rather interesting piece: https://www.techexplorist.com/four-stro ... xide/4911/

This could probably work in a home off of a gas network.

Sounds like a syngas rig without wood.

Of you could skip the conversion losses, complex system and just use the “methane” as is.

rmay635703 wrote:

Phximiev wrote:As an update on the conversion of methane to hydrogen I read this rather interesting piece: https://www.techexplorist.com/four-stro ... xide/4911/

This could probably work in a home off of a gas network.

Sounds like a syngas rig without wood.

Of you could skip the conversion losses, complex system and just use the “methane” as is.

By syngas, you mean something like this?
http://depcik.faculty.ku.edu/?q=syngas

Another interesting article about the use of hydrogen in the Orkney islands:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2019032 ... ogen-power

What an excellent article about starting up hydrogen production using electricity that the islands are unable to export. A wonderful small-medium-scale demonstration. I had three takes from this:

1. "The island’s population had invested in a community-owned wind turbine in 2012, hoping to sell electricity back into the UK national grid and profit from the green energy revolution. But later that year, the grid operator announced that too many new turbines had sprung up in northern Scotland and that they couldn’t take all the clean energy produced...". At 30% under-utilization, this is rather sad and perhaps needs to be re-examined on a macro level, as one would think that interconnected grids should be able to absorb and distribute all the power that's generated.

2. Using electrolysis for generating hydrogen which is storable is a terrific solution for utilizing this excess electricity despite, in the overall scheme of things, it being an awfully inefficient way of finally achieving the end result which is fuel cells for either transportation or as 'batteries' for load balancing.

3. Converting from an oil-industry-based economy to a fossil-fuel-free one has resulted in new-tech jobs filling in the void as the old ones fade away.

It's great that hydrogen is also being seriously pursued for ships and ferries. I understand how a ship needs to carry its fuel for the long distances it travels, so why not hydrogen instead of filthy bunker oil?

As far as our vehicles are concerned, from an overall energy-utilization standpoint where we start with electricity and use it to produce hydrogen (which needs to be stored and transported) to power the fuel cells which then convert back to electricity, I can't help but wonder how that compares with the conversion inefficiencies of utilizing batteries and the ac/dc converters which allow us to do that, not to mention costs...

Phximiev wrote:Another interesting article about the use of hydrogen in the Orkney islands:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2019032 ... ogen-power

Very interesting article, I had no idea that this was going on up there. One of the things that has been discussed in the wider energy mix debate in the UK is the need for multiple implementations of projects like this, as we do have a huge amount of coastline, and more potential wind energy that the rest of Europe combined (apparently). Problem will always be an political-economic one - does central government plan and fund directly, or is this going to need regional planning and implementation on a multiple, small scale basis.

I would assume that the Orkney project involves local budgets with some central subsidy, an array of supplier contractors, and a very strong oversight... the latter being the most difficult from what I have experienced.

Clearly beneficial to produce hydrogen locally, rather than transport it from afar for end use - but the large national grid in the UK does mitigate the electricity transportation problem - so it at least doesn't have to consider that part as much.

Great thing for Orkney is the Hydrogen storage could greatly help with load balancing energy demand, which is a large problem for them, but less so for a substantial grid feeding in from multiple production types. Where they are, I doubt solar would be that efficient.

Another interesting hydrogen article: https://phys.org/news/2019-08-scientist ... tumen.html

Might make a difference as to justifying a hydrogen network in some geographical areas.