Thoughts about next-gen EVs, Charging

So, after reading some disappointing check-ins on Plugshare with dealers chasing people off and broken Quick Chargers, I got to thinking about the future of EVs and public charging, and how things might be with the upcoming Gen2 cars.

Today, our current options (if you're even this lucky) are a maximum of 6.6 kW level 2, CHAdeMO 20 or 50 kW, and CCS 50 kW. Remember, I'm not talking about the specifics of the i-MiEV, but the current non-Tesla EVs. While many are not, a decent portion of charging locations are car dealers, and it seems like more and more are starting to chase people off and not letting people use their EVSEs or quick chargers. While many of us 'early-adopters' are willing to put up with some inconveniences and challenges, the average person won't, and many people that are going to or want to be buying gen2 cars want the simplicity, 'convenience', and abundance of gas stations to go along with their EVs. What we have now as a charging infrastructure isn't going to work out for many people in the long run.

I think Tesla is doing it right. With their destination charging network, places such as hotels, shopping centers, and restaurants offer high speed, level 2 charging to Model S drivers. Many Model S cars have 20 kW onboard charging, which can accept the full range of power for the J1772 spec (80 amp maximum). For travelling between destinations and road trips, they have their Superchargers, which use the same connector and work just as simply.

Of course, standardizing the charging network to mirror Tesla's and be as ubiquitous as gas stations would require all cars to use, at the least, 20 kW onboard chargers and 80 amp J1772 inlets. But even for road-tripping, 80 amp level 2 isn't quite fast enough, so quick chargers still have a need. Maybe that's the CHAdeMO connector, maybe it's the SAE Combo. I am starting to change my mind about which connector is better, and maybe the combo connector would be the best for easiest design and implementation on new EVs. Right now, there are four different connectors in use in the US. There is the current 16/32 amp J1772, CHAdeMO, SAE Combo, and Tesla 2nd generation (5 if you count the Roadster connector). Wouldn't it be nice if they all used (or at least are compatible with) the same connector?

Now, there is the issue of backwards compatibility with current EVs (LEAF, i-MiEV). Obviously, we can't make any better use of an 80 amp charging station vs. a 32 amp charging station or an SAE Combo plug, but as I mentioned in my thread Portable CHAdeMO ( http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21427 ), a relatively small and affordable external charger could, and allow CHAdeMO vehicles to use the full output of an 80 amp J1772 charging station (19.2 kW). To charge an i-MiEV to 80% at this rate would take 30-40 minutes. A full charge would take between 1-2 hours. For a 200-mile car like the Bolt or Model 3, they would have to be able to charge faster than 6.6 kW. This rate for a 50 kWh battery would take 11+ hours to fully recharge. I'm suggesting all automakers follow suit of Tesla and equip their cars with 20 kW chargers to make full use of the J1772 spec. This way, the rate of charging depends on the amperage setting of the charging station and available power. High amperage 208/240 is much easier to be had than 50 kW worth of 3-phase power.

So, in summary, here's what I think:

1. Full J1772 implementation - Design all new EVs and charging stations to use the full 80 amp capability of the J1772 spec, enabling fast charging where quick chargers aren't feasible.
2. Standardized quick charging - Be it CHAdeMO or SAE Combo, all EVs use the same quick charging connector, not either or. Personally, I do think SAE Combo would be better in the long run.
3. Proper locations, management, and maintenance - This is probably the biggest factor. Currently, stations are in less than ideal locations (not all, but many), or are difficult or impossible to access. Some aren't properly maintained and are broken or not compatible with certain cars (Eaton units not updated with the latest firmware to charge 6.6 kW LEAFs, for example. Or how Blink units always seem to be on the blink :lol: ).

I mentally filter dealerships out of my PlugShare map. I wish there were an actual flag for that.

I'm sure Tesla regards their non-standard connector as a feature -- they don't have to chase non-Teslas away from Superchargers; they just provide electricity in a way that only Teslas can use.

I'd love to see home/portable CHAdeMO. As you note, it looks like it could be done with parts from eMotorWerks for about $4000, although it's not clear that anyone's actually done it? But it wasn't that long ago that Level 2 EVSEs were in that price range, so maybe there's hope for the future. I can imagine running it at 9.6 KW (240V/40A) off the NEMA 14-50 I already have -- low power for CHAdeMO, but almost three times what I can put into the i-MiEV via L2. But it'll have to come way down in cost first. And yeah, high-power J1772 -> CHAdeMO would be nice, too.

Nothing more annoying than showing up at a good L2 and having it being used by a Tesla,
And then driving by a multi station Tesla Supercharger nearby with 5 empty stations and no access for we non-tesla users.
They can use ours. We can't use theirs.
Gotta admit its really annoying.

wmcbrine said:

I mentally filter dealerships out of my PlugShare map. I wish there were an actual flag for that.

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Me too. Near where I live there are very few charging options so it appears the folks who run PlugShare Just added in every single Nissan dealership as a 'public charging station' so they would have something to display. When I first joined PlugShare a couple years ago, I got in contact with the 3 Nissan dealerships I would most likely be using (if possible) and none of the three even knew PlugShare existed, didn't have any idea how their dealerships got listed there and No, only Leaf owners could charge at their stations

I did get hold of the dealer in Slidell LA when it looked like I might have to take the second iMiEV to New Orleans to get recall work done and when I explained my predicament, he agreed I could charge there . . . . but he gave me his name and told me to ask for him personally when I got there

I think for the forseeable future there will continue to be two distinct types of EV's - The 'local' around town, not too far from home types with smaller battery banks and smaller onboard chargers and a second, more expensive type of vehicle which could be driven cross country with *not too much* trouble like the Teslas and I guess you could add in a few hybrids like the BMW and the Chevy Volt. With the technology and prices available today, I'd be perfectly happy owning something like our current iMiEV's for 95% of our driving and a 2016 model Chevy Volt for everything else

For a pure EV to be cross country capable, you're looking at big batteries and really current hungry chargers, neither of which are very practical for the amount of money I'd be willing to spend. With an ICE, you take on 100 pounds of 'fuel' which can take you 400 miles or so and the car gets lighter the farther you go. With a pure EV, if you want/need to go 400 miles, you add in 1,000 pounds or more of very expensive battery which you must lug around with you all the time even if your commute is only 30 miles to work and 30 miles home - Not an efficient use of energy no matter what type of energy we're talking about - Every mile of unrecharged range you add to a pure EV, the less efficient the vehicle becomes because that large, expensive battery is still being toted around even when you don't need it. Give me something like a Chevy Volt, since those 400 mile trips are far and few between - Run on batteries 90 or 95% of the time and buy a little gasoline for the other 5 or 10%. An acceptable trade-off, especially since it leaves me with an extra $50K in my bank account

It would be nice if there were charging stations everywhere, designed to deal with every type of EV, but I don't see that happening any time soon. If you have to have only one car and it has to be 100% electric, but still be capable of taking you several hundred miles, I think you'd better invest in a Tesla, since nobody else is coming close to doing what they are doing

Don

Thanks for your input so far. I figured if a change had to happen, now is the best time before things get built out completely and the gen2 cars hit the road.

I do think Tesla is doing great things with their vehicles and network, but that abandons everybody else (join or die?). Our existing standards allows for single phase fast charging without expensive hardware to install (Clipper Creek 80 amp unit is $2,100. A 32 amp Eaton Pow-R-Station is $2,400). These would be good for intermodal stores and restaurants where one would spend roughly and hour and a half, which would give you 30 kWh or so. Along highway rest stops, you still have quick chargers.

Of course, you would still have your full range of EVs, your 50-100 mile group, 100-200 mile group, and 300+ group. That all depends on the market and the manufacturers, though. Are they going to keep building 60-80 mile cars when 200 mile cars are less than $40,000? Will they have different charging options (10 kW standard, 20 kW optional, DCQC optional)? Of course, things could go in a completely different direction. Charging requirements may drop to only home and between cities with increased range. I don't see that happening with current EVs still being on the road combined with the fact that people love getting stuff for free, but it's a possibility.

Looking at an even bigger picture, with the advancement in battery tech, plugin hybrid semi trucks are now a possibility. With their drive train more or less being a smaller Diesel engine, twin electric motors (one per drive axle), and a 150-200 kWh battery, 80 amp level 2 or DCQC would charge these trucks in 9 hours or less, and could be located at popular truck stops, plus could be available for electric car use. Obviously, trucks would have priority.

Don said:

Near where I live there are very few charging options so it appears the folks who run PlugShare Just added in every single Nissan dealership as a 'public charging station' so they would have something to display.

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Well "the folks who run PlugShare" = us, mostly. It's user-generated content. They do have admins -- I think it takes an admin to remove a station -- but anyone can add one. And some people are clearly overzealous about it; e.g., they just find a 5-15 outlet in a parking garage, and bam, it's a charging station.

There is a "restricted" flag, which should maybe be applied more broadly than it is.

Previous poster has a valid point about Nissan dealerships. My experience is one had better ask first, because some dealerships don't even let LEAFS charge unless you bought it there.
Plugshare is a great asset, but not perfect by a long shot!

PlugShare is a crowdsourced electric vehicle charging network available on smart phones and the web. It is loaded with information from electric vehicle users. I check in (leave feedback) every time I charge. Membership is free and any member can edit any charging station.





The PlugScore on PlugShare is based on recent positive or negative check ins by users. I have charged at many Nissan dealerships and have not had any problems, but I check PlugShare before I go to see if someone has charged successfully recently. If a charging station is down, someone usually posts about it pretty quickly (I know I do.) Many Nissan dealerships allow anyone to charge for free any time, including the DC quick charger at Nissan of Turnersville located 28 miles from my home. This DC quick charger has been working great lately and has earned a PlugScore of 10.0. You can add photos to help other EV drivers. I left a couple pictures of "Purple."

Interesting philosophical discussion regarding battery size and public charging infrastructure. Regarding batteries,

Don said:

...For a pure EV to be cross country capable, you're looking at big batteries and really current hungry chargers, neither of which are very practical for the amount of money I'd be willing to spend. With an ICE, you take on 100 pounds of 'fuel' which can take you 400 miles or so and the car gets lighter the farther you go. With a pure EV, if you want/need to go 400 miles, you add in 1,000 pounds or more of very expensive battery which you must lug around with you all the time even if your commute is only 30 miles to work and 30 miles home - Not an efficient use of energy no matter what type of energy we're talking about - Every mile of unrecharged range you add to a pure EV, the less efficient the vehicle becomes because that large, expensive battery is still being toted around even when you don't need it.

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I agree with Don's point about useless overcapacity for the 'typical' driver. I'm constantly bemused when talking with Tesla owners to discover their driving habits are little different than mine and how few of them actually use the available range or even take long trips in the car. Some evidently just plug in (at home) about as often as they used to go to the gas station. I wonder if Tesla ever publishes any usage habits summaries - what a gold mine they must have for data analysis! Like I often say, Tesla is pandering to the populace's perceptions regarding range. That said, they have admirably positioned themselves as the standard for long-distance EV travel.

The second associated point is public infrastructure. I must admit that every longer trip I take which requires public charging is still a little bit of an adventure in not knowing if a charging station will be available. I usually have enough time so I'm not needing DCQC, and L2 availability is the issue (especially being ICEd by PHEVs) but so far I've been successful and, now having i-MiEVs with CHAdeMO, the likeliness of being stranded is even more remote here in the SF Bay Area.

Reflecting on my own case, if Gen2 EVs means 200-mile cars, with that size pack I would have even less need for public charging as that range would allow for a radius from my home to cover virtually all of my local needs without reliance on public charging. The exception would be if I wanted to use the EV for long distance travel… at least two one-hour DCQC recharges would be needed to make a 400-mile trip, which would be doable but significantly sub-par compared to a Tesla. Will 200-mile range EVs be consistently used by families for those longer weekend getaways to the mountains or oceanside?

Regarding PV1's points about the diversity of charging conventions, I've moved on, after swearing at Detroit and the German automakers a few years back for developing and adopting the SAE CCS standard. For now, we're riding the Japanese CHAdeMO bandwagon, but I think the whole issue of DCQC 'standardization' will not be settled in my lifetime, so I can't get worked up over it. In the near-future, I'd simply like to buy a relatively inexpensive DCQC charger which would allow me to use a standard 14-50 outlet and thus I'd have reasonably-quick charging available both at home and at RV campgrounds nationwide.

From a personal perspective, my wife makes the 400-mile (one-way) trip to Oregon about every six weeks (in the Gen1 Honda Insight), and we've both agreed that this is insufficient justification to get a Tesla (even if we were ok with making such an expensive purchase, which we're not), as the Tesla would simply just sit there unused (like the Insight) the rest of the time. Once California's DCQC electric highway is completed, I might be tempted to mosey on up to Oregon separately in the i-MiEV, just for fun.

It's rare that I use a full charge, but it's there if/when I need it. And with the recent expansion of quick charging in my area, a disappointing number of these stations are either malfunctioning/non-functional, or have restricted access. However, many if not all L2 units work well and have decent access around here. This is why I propose that automakers open up to the full potential of the J1772 spec and enable their cars to use 10-20 kW of L2, pretty much regardless of battery size. L1/L2 EVSE is so much simpler and inherently more reliable. They are also 5-10% the cost of a quick charger, and 80 amp units are capable of charging at near the same average speed of a quick charger. Charging stations will still have a place within cities, but will have a growing need between cities. If I use public charging in my town, it's usually because I'm testing the units (got to try out the new stuff, right?). But say someone rolls in from out of town. Out of the four locations with charging stations/quick chargers, only two are accessible, one of those two is a dealer. So, they either stop at the Nissan dealer or at Tanger Outlets with 4 L2 ports. Same thing with Pittsburgh 30 miles north. Many drivers in the city may never have a need to charge in town, but for out-of-towners like me, they are necessary in the winter, and especially with highway travel at any time of the year. Also, with the installation of quick chargers at the Sheetz stores in Blairsville, PA and Altoona, PA, there is a lot of travel in the section by LEAF and Model S drivers, where there wasn't before. So, even though a local EV'er may never/rarely use charging stations in their town/city, don't forget about people passing through. Besides, charging infrastructure making a presence on its own does away with the excuse people give about not being able to charge. Plus, passersby get a live demo when an EV uses a station. I tend to think on the principle of "build it and they will come". I've made some trips in my i-MiEV that I otherwise wouldn't have done just because there was a charging station at/near my destination, even if I didn't need it.

As for the actual battery size in the new cars, could you imagine charging a 50-60 kWh battery pack with only a 6.6 kW onboard charger? Now how about with a 10 kW charger? 20 kW charger? So, larger chargers are pretty much a necessity, and many of the existing L2 may not be able to charge these cars at full speed. Even a 14-50 outlet isn't much faster than an EVSE (40 amps vs. 32 amps). EVerybody can use 80 amp J1772 (though at different potentials), but not everyone can use a CHAdeMO or SAE Combo unit.

Driving habits. I agree that many people's expectations are unrealistic (VW, how many people actually need 800 miles per tank? I doubt anyone could drive that long without stopping for other reasons.), however there are a considerable number of people that do need 150-200 miles of range for the car to work for them. That is the biggest battle everybody is fighting, perceptions. One's perceived needs vs. their actual needs. Somebody goes out and buys/leases a 200-mile EV, realize they never drive more than 30-40 miles, and then may trade down for a cheaper car with less range, or augment the 200-mile car with a used LEAF or i-MiEV. The Volt can serve this purpose (make people realize how far most of them don't drive), but with 200-mile EVs on the horizon, people still on the fence can make the switch to electric completely without worry. Tesla is doing it right by blowing away expectations and giving many a reality check, but for now it is still member's only. Overbuilding EVs for now will only help get more folks off of gasoline. Combined with walking/cycling/eBikes/mass transit, isn't that the end goal?

In this thread (http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1909) we had attempted to identify public charging station users in a local community, at a time when only limited-range EVs were on the road:

1. Local EV/NEV driver with short range who NEEDS to charge to get home.
2. Local EV commuter who takes family out for shopping/dinner in town after work and has a follow-on appointment and NEEDS to charge while in town.
3. Long-distance driver on a nearby Interstate who NEEDS to stop and charge, and, e.g., has a meal while waiting.
4. Long-distance driver for whom the town is a destination; e.g., a meeting. This person NEEDS to charge.
5. Employees of businesses within the town who are EV commuters and NEED to charge to get home.
6. A local resident coming home from a long trip and running on 'empty' and NEEDS to charge in order to get home.
7. A local resident not having an option of charging at home and thus NEEDS to charge to use a BEV.

That last point was added as the realization sinks in that many (majority?) residents of multi-unit-dwellings are being shut out of electric vehicles because their managers or associations are making it inordinately difficult or expensive to install EVSEs.

200-mile BEVs will significantly reduce the EVSE utilization in each of those categories, with #7 still a huge existing need. Workplace charging availability further alters the equation, although the realization of the true workplace charging costs (considering peak rates and demand charges and infrastructure upgrade costs) by employers may well slow that down.

So, I did a little investigating and compared the current charging infrastructure to gas stations.

All J1772 plugs:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0q7vy2pqaor0b1v/L2%20EVSE.png?dl=0

All Gas stations:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnaq44si1xmidld/Gas%20Stations.png?dl=0

CHAdeMO:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bzqbt8a0qufdirj/CHAdeMO.png?dl=0

SAE Combo:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ljp43ltaeezwulm/SAE%20Combo.png?dl=0

It's amazing how built out gas stations are for vehicles that have 400+ mile range...and they're always full of cars.

We recently got the first public charger of any kind in our city. It's a single L2 plug in the parking lot of the CTA (Coast Transit Authority which operates the city buses). The news articles which alerted me to it didn't specify anything about it . . . . I had no idea if it was L1 or L2 until I tried plugging into it a week ago

At any rate, it's L2 and the few minutes I used it was the first time either of my iMiEV's have ever recharged at the 3.3 Kw max rate - I have my personal EVSE's limited to 12 amps. This station is free to the public, but would it be if it was a 40 or 50 amp L2 station? A public station could run up a serious electric bill if it was regularly used by vehicles which could make use of 50 amps @ 240 VAC

Maybe . . . . . the next 'big thing' will be electric highways which charge the cars as they drive down the road like the one they are building in England.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/england-will-test-electric-car-charging-lanes/

If electric vehicles are ever going to be truly practical for long range use, I think something like that technology is going to be the eventual answer. You have a 150 or 200 mile BEV which makes a large percentage of it's long range trips on a road which allows you to drive it not using your onboard battery power - Save that for the commute to and from the 'electric highway'

Don

In-road power transfer seems like the best solution to me, as it can be adapted to existing EVs. If Solar Roadways become a reality (meaning actually installed on major roadways) and they include wireless power transfer, that may be the best solution overall for transportation and power generation/infrastructure. Personally, I don't see that happening for a number of reasons.

By the way, congrats on finally getting a usable public charging station.

Don said:

I had no idea if it was L1 or L2 until I tried plugging into it a week ago

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Public J1772s are almost all L2... where L1 is offered, it's just as a wall plug (with the expectation that you'll bring your own L1 EVSE). I kinda doubt that anyone would treat a new L1 station as newsworthy.

wmcbrine said:

I doubt anyone would write up a news article about an L1 station.

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In Biloxi, where we've been selling EV's for more than 3 years now, the first public charging station of *any kind* is pretty big news!!

Truth be told though, I think there may be a total of just 6 or 8 BEV's on all of the Mississippi Gulf Coast . . . . and 2 of those are in my garage :mrgreen:

I'm guessing it's probably L2 @ 30 amps, but no way to be sure. Too bad it's only 6 or 7 miles from my house. Now, when we finally get a station in Pascagoula or Gulfport, that will be really welcome news

Don

Oddly enough, their is a women's college near the Naval Training Center Great Lakes that has a whole line of public J1772 Level 1 chargers. Very beautiful setup but unbelievably slow. Back in the day it saved one of our trips to Chicago but oh, so slow!

Edit; It'# Rosalind franklin university.

PV1 said:

In-road power transfer seems like the best solution to me, as it can be adapted to existing EVs. If Solar Roadways become a reality (meaning actually installed on major roadways) and they include wireless power transfer, that may be the best solution overall for transportation and power generation/infrastructure. Personally, I don't see that happening for a number of reasons.

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We've built Express 'Toll Roads' all over the place - I could see the day when they have an EV lane. You pay the toll when you enter (based on the number of miles you're going to be on the road) and they (eventually) get their money back and at some point, it's profitable

If you only needed battery power to get to and from the 'EV Lane' then EV's would be much more practical. Probably any such plans have been relegated to the back burner by now though with the advent of sub $2 gas . . . .

Don

Volvo's throwing their weight around for CCS.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/volvo-calls-on-industry-to-adopt-single-ev-charging-standard/?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=031616

At least policy has been set that any state-supported DCFC in Washington State will be dual-standard.
We had all-day meetings yesterday to give Washington DOT input on how and where to site their new DCFC stations, paid for by a portion of the $100 (rising to $150 in July) registration surcharges that have been imposed on EV drivers.

At least they are making decent use of the surcharge.

As for Volvo and the plug mess we have, CHAdeMO is the global DCQC standard. It's used everywhere, especially in Japan (where Plugshare doesn't show a green pin anywhere on the island). If they want a single, globally standard plug, make it CHAdeMO. Yes, it'd be oversized for 120 volt charging that really only suits the current Gen1 EVs (i-MiEV, LEAF, Volt), but it would be one single plug that is used everywhere. Until VW, GM, and others got on the SAE about making a new DC plug, CHAdeMO was the de-facto US standard, as well. If they wanted a US standard plug, CCS should've come along before any of the plug-ins hit the road. Because it took so long to even develop the J1772-2009 standard, Tesla made their own connector for the Roadster.

If anything, we dump CHAdeMO and J1772 and use Tesla's 2nd Generation connector (Model S connector). It remains the most compact and most capable connector (I was just at a Supercharger yesterday, their connector is smaller than J1772) at 120 kW and 400+ VDC. Plus, the underlying communications is J1772, so a simple physical adapter is all that's necessary for AC charging (Superchargers start as J1772 then switch to CAN and car-side authentication before charging).

The PA Turnpike is (finally) starting to get DCQC along the route, but they are using Blink units, which I've heard almost nothing but complaints about. Per EVSEUpgrade, Blink is far and away the most unreliable charging station. The local level 2 Blink unit on the Pike had a PlugScore of less than 3 (location's score is higher now that the DCQC was very recently brought online).

Based on our customer reports the #1 unreliable EVSE is the Blink. (by a wide margin) #2 is the Schneider EV-Link (though in their defense, I think the newer ones are better as we haven't heard much more recently) #3 is the Legrand (Lear), and #4 is the AeroVironment,

From MyNissanLEAF, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=10915&sid=b9ed5485e788d2809c95a0e6226f4f35

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I'm not sure what to think of the whole mess. Maybe we all get together and approach Tesla for a Supercharger to CHAdeMO adapter? Maybe go ahead and make all the new stations and cars have CCS (with the expectation that affordable adapters are available for CHAdeMO cars)?