Mitsubishi / Nissan deal for a cheap electric? (2016/17)

Target 1,5 M yen (14,000 USD). Seems to be littler than Leaf, and Nissan more interested than Mitsubishi.

http://www.auto123.com/en/news/nissan-and-mitsubishi-announce-joint-ev-program?artid=169945 (English/Canada)

http://www.leblogauto.com/2014/08/mitsubishi-et-nissan-allies-pour-une-electrique-abordable.html (Français)

http://www.automobil-produktion.de/2014/08/nissan-und-mitsubishi-planen-elektro-auto-zum-kampfpreis/ (German)

http://www.motorpasionfuturo.com/coches-electricos/mitsubishi-y-nissan-persiguen-el-desarrollo-conjunto-de-un-coche-electrico-asequible (Spanish)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MK1lDeAibY

If you are interested in seeing what a Nissan Dayz looks like. Check out the futuristic HVAC controls! We get that old fashioned knobs and dials for HVAC controls. Why can't we get things like that? The Dayz and Dayz Roox are simple kei cars but they have better interiors than some of our better cars over here. Sheesh!

Don't miss the leg room shot, lots! Amazing for such a small car.

The Roox is a bit goofy but I'd drive it. The utility of that thing would be awesome. I saw more conventional HVAC controls in one of the shots of the Roox. I like the futuristic ones better in the Dayz, must have been an up model.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=311vzmT7Y2A

MLucas said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MK1lDeAibY
If you are interested in seeing what a Nissan Dayz looks like...

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Amazing similarities to our i-MiEV. The flat floor with back seats down seems to be de rigueur for the Kei cars, whereas this concept seems to have eluded so many carmakers (including the 500e). With a lot of hardware and layout commonality between the Dayz and i-MiEV, can't help wonder if there was already some design team collusion. All these premium features show what can be done when the pursestrings are relaxed.

I'm sure the Mitsu/Nissan collaboration will result in a car that will be price-competitive with the bottom-of-the-line ICE cars, as the modularity of the electric drive systems should produce a simpler-to-fabricate vehicle without all that ICE-related hardware. Volume production of the batteries and electronics should further decrease their costs. The future is bright, and all we need to do is keep showing off the practicality of our existing little workhorses and slowly converting one friend at a time...

Not bad. Although I'd prefer the knobs in the i-MiEV over a touch panel for HVAC, I'd love to have that camera system.

I wish it had rear-wheel drive. With the ICE in the front, the ICE versions are almost certainly front-wheel drive. That would almost certain make it less expensive to use the front-wheel drive parts in the EV version. Oh, well, at least it will be a very small 4-passenger EV like our i-MiEV which is what I prefer.

Of course, there are no guarantees that it will be sold in the U.S. It might not pass the U.S. side impact crash test unless it's widened like the current i-MiEV had to be. It would certainly have to have more substantial bumpers added. All of this adds cost to a U.S. model. But if it is sold in the U.S., I don't see any other competition at this size and functionality (the Smart ED doesn't have the same functionality).

The question which remains in my mind is one of size for the battery pack. Even if battery cost reductions and range improvements are on the way, there is a physical size limit to the kei class. How much range can we get out of a pack with i-MiEV dimensions?

Mart said:

The question which remains in my mind is one of size for the battery pack. Even if battery cost reductions and range improvements are on the way, there is a physical size limit to the kei class. How much range can we get out of a pack with i-MiEV dimensions?

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Perhaps 20 kWh or so.

They are talking about a range of 200 km. And the i-MiEV have 160 km (japanese cycle) with 16 kWh...

So perhaps a 75 mile range EPA estimate at best?

200km translates to 124 miles. Likely 100 miles is the target for the US cycle.

Front wheel drive will have an advantage in the amount of regen energy available.

I agree, this is a very bland design. If it has ~100 mile range, then I'm still interested, though. I'm including the image so we can see it in this thread.

NeilBlanchard said:

Front wheel drive will have an advantage in the amount of regen energy available.

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But it would have a disadvantage in increased tire wear, larger turning circle, and possibly increased problems with CV joints that have to operate at increased angles when turning.

I assume that the regen advantage is because with forward weight transfer when decelerating, more regen could be applied before reaching the traction limit. But I'm not sure I would want the wheels that steer near their traction limit during max regen, especially in wet or icy conditions. Traction control would deal with this but only by reducing regen. So all in all, I think I prefer a rear wheel drive car.

About 70% of the braking power comes from the front wheels, which is why the front brakes are always stronger on all vehicles. So, the proportion of regen available from the front wheels is about the same. There are a bunch of front wheel drive cars and front wheel drive EV's, too, and none are hindered by these sorts of issues, as far as I know.

Art and Neil- good points both. One of my disappointments with the Ford Focus EV was that it couldn't control the electric torque adequately to prevent torque steer even on dry pavement. I haven't spent any time on their forums, but that car would be the one I'd wonder about regarding regen in slippery conditions.
The Spark EV, also FWD, has an excellent handle on torque steer even with so much more power on tap.

I think that torque steer comes from the geometry of the suspension; more than from the actual torque level. The car that I remember having the most torque steer was the first gen Honda Civic (just after the 600) and it was not a torque monster, by any means.

NeilBlanchard said:

About 70% of the braking power comes from the front wheels, which is why the front brakes are always stronger on all vehicles. So, the proportion of regen available from the front wheels is about the same.

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I understand that when maximum braking force is applied to all 4 wheels, about 70% of the stopping power comes from the front wheels, largely due to weight shift . . . . but how does that same ratio apply to regenerative braking which isn't enough to overcome the coefficient of friction of the single axle where it's being applied? If our iMiEV was FWD I seriously doubt we'd have any more regenerative braking than we have now

Don

I doubt it, too. The regen is limited by the programming, which at it's peak can come near the 50 kW max power, and it doesn't cause the rear wheels to skid.

I actually prefer the regen on the rear wheels, so that front braking is purely hydraulic and lends to stronger overall braking. The Cavalier I was driving before would skid the rear wheels under heavy braking (which was probably just a mis-adjustment), which would kick the ABS in and reduce all braking. Mild rear skid on the i-MiEV only drops regen, leaving front brake force alone.

Found that out about the Cavalier on the highway going from 65 to 0 mph in a pretty short distance because some idiot was STOPPED in the right lane because he passed the exit :shock: :twisted: . Not that he wasn't on the inside of a turn with a lot of traffic coming up behind me. :roll:

The EV with the most regen braking might be the i3 which can come to a complete stop without pressing the brake pedal, yet it's rear wheel drive.

Can an electric drive motor regen as strongly as it can accelerate? I.e., can the regen power be as high as the acceleration power? Or are battery packs limited more on power in vs. power out?

Any regen limits are probably due to the battery. The physics are the same whether the stopping torque comes from friction brakes or from the electric motor. The same weight shift occurs, and the same traction limits apply. If the motor can accelerate the car, then it can decelerate it, too.

The most efficient 4 seat electric car in the world - the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' has front wheel drive. More important than regen is free wheel coasting. And having an AC induction motor (no permanent magnets) helps with coasting. This is by far the most efficient way to use the kinetic energy "stored" in the moving mass of the car. The only losses are there anyway - aero drag being the biggest of these by far.

But when you want to slow the car down, the front wheels are almost 2X as powerful for slowing the car down. All regen has some loss, which is why this is something that should be used only when you have to slow the car down. By coasting as much as possible, you accelerate less and you have less need to slow the car - so this adds up to much lower overall consumption.

The IMW '7' uses just ~130Wh/mile at 60-70MPH on flat ground in low wind conditions. Think about that. That is about 2X as efficient as the i MiEV and the Leaf, and at least 4X as efficient as the Prius.